# 6 million were killed during the Holocoust is innacurate... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054 "2003-06-02T02:52:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/21 "2003-06-02T16:29:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \* > \*\*Let us not forget the psychiatrically labeled. We were early targets of the “cleansing”. \*\* Right. Hitler’s regime is believed to have forcefully “euthanised” in excess of 1 million people, including approximately 220,000 homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/22 "2003-06-02T18:12:25Z")
**Sn-man** , Cecil’s column has some of those numbers, for your citing pleasure: [lotta death numbers here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021018.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sn-man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sn-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sn-man)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/23 "2003-06-02T18:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\ ***Sn-man** , Cecil’s column has some of those numbers, for your citing pleasure: > > [lotta death numbers here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021018.html) \*\* Thanks **iampunha** , it looks like that is where I got my numbers; cut and paste with a little editing. ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/24 "2003-06-03T11:51:22Z")
One simple reason why (imho) the 6 million figure is so imprinted is that the jewish survivors went on to have familys. These families were of the same makeup as that which was persecuted. These families were often living in countries where they continued to be a (sometimes persecuted) minority. Those who were taken away for their sexuality, political beliefs or disabilities were being persecuted for something that was generally not common to their family. Thats my WAG anyhow. Obviously the sheer number is also a main reason, and the fact that the jewish community has practised “never forget, never again” and contributed so much to history and education in this area. I am going to guess that also, with the huge numbers we are discussing for this group, there must also have been a very large number of survivors, which would also have helped in spreading the word, and keeping the memory of what happened? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/25 "2003-06-03T13:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Those who were taken away for their sexuality, political beliefs or disabilities were being persecuted for something that was generally not common to their family. The Rom were still Rom after the holocaust. So were the Sinti, Domari and Lom and various other sub sets that were rounded up and slaughtered for exactly the same reason as the Jews. the Trade unionists and the Communists were the ones who were killed for their beliefs, not for their ethnicity or sexuality (if you get my distinction). One possible reason why the plight of the Jews is put forward moreso than the plight of the Gypsies (to you a collectivism) is that a vast majority of people still regard them as trash. The Roma never wanted their own country, and given the prevailent attitude towards them in Europe at the time (and still very much prevailent now) would never have allowed for a country to be created for them. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/26 "2003-06-03T15:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*One possible reason why the plight of the Jews is put forward moreso than the plight of the Gypsies (to you a collectivism) is that a vast majority of people still regard them as trash. \*\* This may be a trifle strong. In my experience (World traveler), most people don’t think about “Jews” much at all, one way or another. It’s just not on their menu. OTOH, I would suggest that a _significant and vociferous minority_ consider Jews to be “trash.” That doesn’t change the thrust of your comment any, it just seems to be more in keeping with observations. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/27 "2003-06-03T16:15:35Z")
Sorry, I may have phrased my comments wrong. I meant to say that Gypsies are the ones still viewed as trash, not Jews. Mty apologies for the misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/28 "2003-06-03T20:51:34Z")
Ah! Parsing problems. My comment likely applies to the Rom, too, though again, I don’t know that that makes any diference to your argument. If the only voices being heard are the ones saying bad things… _shrug_ A perhaps more plausible reason for the Rom, Sinti, Domari and Lom genocides being ignored is that as highly insular social groups, not well integrated into society at large, they have less _access_ to the means to tell their own story. From the few Rom I’ve met, I gather that they’d rather keep it that way (Personal experience only, and speculative at that). With no detailed census figures, no well-established access to mass media, and no desire to open up their society to outside scrutiny, it’s very difficult indeed to tell the tale of genocide and democide against these groups. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/29 "2003-06-03T22:01:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tranquilis \* > \*\*…though the horror in the Congo will most likely exceed Iraq’s total fatality count. \*\* Which one? And where does Leopold of Belgium rate, or does he count more for the 19th century’s totals? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/30 "2003-06-03T22:43:42Z")
That Adolf character looks like an amature compared with Uncle Joe. Maybe the real question is why he gets more press while only bringing home the Bronze in the Genicide Olympics? That Joe S. was a dirty-bird! * * * Why do the artists who bitch the loudest about free downloading get so much radio airplay? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/31 "2003-06-03T22:52:11Z")
> [@](#): > > it’s very difficult indeed to tell the tale of genocide and democide against these groups. I think I did go a little overboard on my discriptions, my apologies. The Lom and Domari weren’t as effected, as the Lom where in Armenia and the domari weren’t really affected, so you can count them out of figures in the Holocaust. In one way, it is possible to tell their tales, as the Nazi did keep some records. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/32 "2003-06-03T23:23:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > \*\*Which one? And where does Leopold of Belgium rate, or does he count more for the 19th century’s totals? \*\* Leopold would more count against the 19th century totals, I think, or at least against colonialism totals. I was actually referring to the last five or so years in the Congo, though if you were to count all of the 20th century as one long murder spree, the toll in Congo would be beyond staggering. Uncle Joe Stalin was once our ally, had unrestrained control of state media, and had an virtual army of appologists around the world whom were willing to defend anything with a communist label without examining the contents. All of that mitigated against a wide-spread understanding of the Democide committed by him. That’s one of the charms of _The Black Book Of Communism_ that I referred to above: It’s written by a collection of leftists or former leftists. One of the interesting aspects of utterly repressive regimes is the compulsive record-keeping. In order to control the populace completely, they must know as much as is possible about the people; their lives, connections, and activities. When such a regime falls, the truth comes _leaping_ out of hiding… ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/33 "2003-06-03T23:38:49Z")
More: During Leopold II’s reign, somewhere between five and eight million were killed in the Congo, in a programme of forced labor and state terror. The most recent work on the subject, that I know of, is [King Leopold’s Ghost](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0618001905/ref%3Dcm_bg_d_4/002-5442133-8036812), a book on my must-read list. Having not yet read it, I can’t comment on it’s content, style, or accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054/34 "2003-06-04T02:55:37Z")
I think one reason the Jews get more attention is that there are large, enfranchised Jewish populations living in the US and England that survived the war laregely unscathed and were able to effectively keep their lost relations in the public eye. There aren’t equivalent Romany populations in the West, and they are still the target of a lot of bigotry and low-scale Democide (forced sterilizations, but no death camps. Yet.) in Eastern Europe. They don’t get as much attention because they don’t have an effective voice to draw attention to themselves. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by gatopescado_ > That Adolf character looks like an amature compared with Uncle Joe. Maybe the real question is why he gets more press while only bringing home the Bronze in the Genicide Olympics? Well, look at what he had to work with. Germany ain’t all that big. Killing thirty million people in Germany or by using only German troops takes real effort and organiztion. Killing thirty-five million Chinese out of a population of a billion is a lot easier. Heck, you could almost do it by accident. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/6-million-were-killed-during-the-holocoust-is-innacurate/179054.md?page=1)