# 60-day termination of Tenancy. Any idea how to go over the manager's head? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 11, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004 "2013-10-11T17:33:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/81 "2013-10-17T00:28:53Z")
Bumping this in hopes we will find out the reason they are being asked to move out. I’m just nosy that way. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/82 "2013-10-18T23:59:01Z")
Sorry to be away so long. This past Monday, I crawled to the manager’s office and begged her to rescind the demand. She said that it was beyond her authority to do so, that the order to deliver the notice had come from above, and that if I wished to have it reconsidered, I would need to write a letter to the management company (there’s apparently some unspoken agreement to pretend that the “management company” is NOT the owner). She also insisted that she did not know the reason for the notice being ordered. Further, she notified me that she was aware of my attempts to obtain a phone number from the manager of another property. So, the next day I put the following into the mail (certified). > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Apartment Owner, Inc. > Attn: General Manager > October 15, 2013 > > Dear Sir or Madam, > > On October 7, your property manager, [_Ms. P. Manager_], presented me with a 60-Day Notice of Termination of Tenancy (a copy of which is enclosed for your reference). When I asked her about its origin and reason, she responded that she had been instructed to deliver it to me by her employer, that is to say, you. > > The reason for this letter is that I wish to ask you to reconsider the decision you made that resulted in the instruction to [_Ms. Manager_], to reverse the decision, and to cancel the Notice of Termination. > > The Notice of Termination was not accompanied by anything that would indicate why the decision was made; thus, I find that I am severely limited in the statements I can make to persuade you to grant my request. Therefore, at this time I will simply discuss why I wish for the request to be granted. > > To be compelled to move out of our apartment would place great hardships upon my family and me. We have lived in this home for more than sixteen years. My daughter Kayla is in her senior year of high school, and is hard at work trying to prepare the conditions that will allow her to go off to college next fall. To be forced to transfer out of her school would interfere with everything that she has accomplished so far, and could push her dreams out of reach entirely. > > My health and physical condition since 1997 have not improved appreciably, and in fact have declined somewhat as I have aged. When we moved in I was 41 years old, and I performed the bulk of the physical labor that was involved, and I was readily able to do so. I no longer have such strength and stamina at age 57, and not being capable of handling that level of physical labor, I would be forced to hire professional movers to perform most of it. I do not have any money to do this. > > Some of the features that presently make the [_this apartment_] such an outstanding home for us are: the size of the accommodations, the proximity to Kayla’s high school, and the fact that it has a back yard, which provides space for kaylasmom’s guide dog Valor to get some exercise and to relieve himself, which he must do several times per day. I have done some looking around at alternative housing venues during the past week, and it has become apparent to me that it would not be feasible, within sixty days, to find, apply for, and obtain (in a lump sum) the amount of money it would take to execute a lease and to move into a suitable replacement home. > > Again, not having been presented with the reason or reasons why you are asking us to leave this property, I cannot make any specific offers regarding what I would be prepared to do to be allowed to remain. However, I will state that I am HIGHLY motivated to avoid having to move out, and it is difficult to imagine any set of conditions you may choose to impose that I would not be prepared to meet, so long as we are permitted to stay. > > I should probably go ahead and bring this up. I have made some attempts during the past week to find a way to make contact with you by telephone. My reason for this is that I have been hoping to make this appeal by way of a personal conversation, rather than deal with the delays that are necessarily involved when (at most) once-per-day mail delivery is the pace at which a matter such as this is conducted. I have now accepted that personal conversation is “off the table” as far as you are concerned, and I hope that you will not let my past efforts to initiate such a conversation stand in the way of your approval of my request. > > You may reach me by mail at the address above. In the event that you would find corresponding by email acceptable, my email address is: [_available in my user profile_]. > > I thank you for taking the time to read this, and I humbly plead that you decide in our favor. > > Very Truly Yours, > > Kaylasdad99 Yesterday, the manager asked me if I would be able to meet with her supervisor in her office today. This afternoon, I went there. The “supervisor” (the owner, actually) told me that I had been receiving more 3-Day Notices to Perform Covenant or Quit than he was prepared to tolerate. These were related to the frequency with which we pick up the dog crap on our back lawn (fifteen and a half years of doing it once a week apparently suddenly became unacceptable to them). He told me that if I’m prepared to sign a clause in our lease agreement that we’ll pick up after him daily, he’s prepared to rescind the demand. So the crisis has been averted, **kayla** gets to graduate from her high school on schedule, I don’t have to find a new place to live, and all’s well that ends well. I have a suspicion that my explanation will not end the questions here on the SDMB, though. I won’t try to preemptively answer them; I’ll just see what shows up. Thanks to all for your time and advice. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/83 "2013-10-19T00:07:59Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Didn’t you do a thread about your daughter’s choir teacher being fired? Your style of writing is very, perhaps excruciatingly, detailed and if your intention is to write a similar letter, it will not be effective. A.) Yes I did, and B.) In your face. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/84 "2013-10-19T00:29:33Z")
So what I’m reading between the lines is that you’ve been receiving regular notices for some time that you are in violation of the lease in that you are not doing something you promised (this is what a covenant is) to do in the lease agreement. Specifically you are not disposing of pet waste in the appropriate manner as per the terms of your lease. If you’ve been receiving such notices regularly why were you so shocked at the termination of tenancy notice, and why wouldn’t you have suspected this was the cause of the termination? I don’t know your lease/situation but most of the communities we’ve worked with the standard rules on pet waste are that you are required to dispose of pet waste immediately, and are in fact in violation of the community policies if you are walking your pet on community grounds without appropriate pet waste disposal equipment. Someone that repeatedly over many years refused to properly dispose of pet waste in one of the residential complexes we are responsible for would almost certainly have their tenancy terminated if they were month to month or evicted on the grounds of violating the lease otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/85 "2013-10-19T00:34:35Z")
Glad it worked out, especially for your daughter’s sake. But I’m very confused as to why you didn’t start cleaning up after your dog more regularly after getting the first 3-day notice. If my landlord sent a notice like that, I’d be pretty concerned and careful not to do it again. Not to mention that leaving piles of dog shit all over your (or really, the landlord’s) yard to accumulate for a week is pretty gross, stinky, and unsanitary in and of itself. How do you use the yard like that? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/86 "2013-10-19T00:39:23Z")
How many “3-Day Notices to Perform Covenant or Quit” did you receive anyhow? Because as others said, if you’ve received multiple such notices, you shouldn’t have been surprised by the termination of the tenancy. But congratulations on changing the landlord’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/87 "2013-10-19T00:47:20Z")
When I first read this… > [@](#): > > back yard, which provides space for kaylasmom’s guide dog Valor to get some exercise and to relieve himself, which he must do several times per day. …I thought to myself “that’s maybe something I would have left out”. Imagine my (non) surprise to find out the reason for the 60 day notice was… > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > related to the frequency with which we pick up the dog crap on our back lawn Weekly pickup might be acceptable for a place you OWN, but in a rental (and I’m not sure but do other tenants share this yard??) I think nothing short of picking up after EVERY INSTANCE would be acceptable. (and I speak as a dog owner AND a renter). I sympathize however with the fact that they tacitly allowed it for 15 years so it is a little unfair to suddenly make an issue of it, and in such a dramatic way. Perhaps a new tenant moved into one of the other units and proceeded to make a fuss? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/88 "2013-10-19T00:48:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > So what I’m reading between the lines is that you’ve been receiving regular notices for some time that you are in violation of the lease in that you are not doing something you promised (this is what a covenant is) to do in the lease agreement. Specifically you are not disposing of pet waste in the appropriate manner as per the terms of your lease. > > If you’ve been receiving such notices regularly why were you so shocked at the termination of tenancy notice, and why wouldn’t you have suspected this was the cause of the termination? > > I don’t know your lease/situation but most of the communities we’ve worked with the standard rules on pet waste are that you are required to dispose of pet waste immediately, and are in fact in violation of the community policies if you are walking your pet on community grounds without appropriate pet waste disposal equipment. > > Someone that repeatedly over many years refused to properly dispose of pet waste in one of the residential complexes we are responsible for would almost certainly have their tenancy terminated if they were month to month or evicted on the grounds of violating the lease otherwise. This is why I originally posted in GQ; I wanted to limit the discussion to “how can I find a way to initiate a telephone conversation?” I’ll point out again that our practice for over fifteen years had been to pick up once per week, and this had never been considered a problem before the past few months. IOW, it is our belief that we have been properly disposing of the waste, and that they have arbitrarily changed the meaning of the word “properly.” It’s okay, though; as I mentioned in the letter, I am HIGHLY motivated to stay, and willing to put up with a certain amount of arbitrariness. The dogs (serially; we’ve never more than one guide dog at a time) have never been allowed to relieve themselves in common areas of the complex. That has never been at issue. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/89 "2013-10-19T00:52:37Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#): > > I sympathize however with the fact that they tacitly allowed it for 15 years so it is a little unfair to suddenly make an issue of it, and in such a dramatic way. > Perhaps a new tenant moved into one of the other units and proceeded to make a fuss? Neighbors on both sides lived here when we moved in. On one side, the tenant used to occupy the apartment with his parents, but last year they passed away (within a few months of one another). He’s still there, and the only complaint he’s ever made to me is that our air conditioning unit made more noise than he wanted to put up with. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/90 "2013-10-19T02:33:07Z")
We have 3 dogs. They go to work with me each day where they have access to acres of fields to romp (and shit) in. At home they very often go into the woods a short way to eliminate. But the older one still occasionally leaves a pile in the yard. I patrol the yard daily, just because it’s easier IMO to scoop up fresh. Plus exercise and vitamin D!! Celebrate. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/91 "2013-10-19T03:56:04Z")
The answer to your question in the OP is that you should go to the superintendent, apologize for not cleaning up after your dog, and ask if you can sign an addendum to your lease committing you to picking up after the dog forthwith when it defecates. Unfortunately, your being disingenuous by leaving out the material facts led to your not receiving a good answer, and instead made the thread a bit of a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/92 "2013-10-19T04:31:04Z")
Perhaps. It depends somewhat on what one considers a “good” answer. When I posted, my criteria was: _a set of steps I could take that would result in me being able to initiate a phone conversation with the property manager’s superiors._ ISTM that the reason I wasn’t able to get the “good” answer is because there really never was a set of steps that would achieve that outcome for me. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/93 "2013-10-19T04:39:54Z")
My medium-sized dog would produce 2 largeish piles of smelly dog shit a day, and more when he was on certain meds. So you’ve let 7-14 larger piles of dog shit accumulate every week in a warm/hot weather climate. That’s kind of a disgusting situation, and makes me pity anyone who lives downwind of you. The fact that you’ve been doing it for over 15 years is not exactly a point in your favor. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/94 "2013-10-19T12:53:48Z")
Leaving out the part about not picking up your dog’s crap was pretty shitty. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/95 "2013-10-20T06:53:40Z")
Before you do something which will GUARANTEE your being listed as a “problem tenant” (repeatedly threatening to “go over the manager’s head” may or may not - actually doing so will remove any question) - talk POLITELY to the manager and see if you can get her to write a letter of recommendation. Even if she refuses, a polite request may keep her from blacklisting you. You are in a very competitive rental market - you don’t hold any aces. Fold gracefully and ask if you can still use the address for school purposes - if memory serves, USPS mail forwarding ended at 6 months - not enough to glide through graduation. If she seems amenable, you might ASK for an extension for the kid’s sake. Go read the Craigslist’s Housing Wanted section - it is hilarious - "do you mind that we are being subject to Unlawful Detainer? (the legal procedure to evict). And “please work with us on the deposit”. I won’t even go into the folks who want to charge you for “house sitting” your empty home, or the "upscale lady with her “upscale sports care” who is now available to move into your Upscale home and enjoy your refined and relaxed atmosphere. Wow! I am so lucky! you will maybe consider allowing me to house and feed you?! And not charge me anything?? And this is Sacramento - not exactly Nob Hill here. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004/96 "2013-10-20T14:39:32Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > And this is Sacramento - not exactly Nob Hill here. No, all the Nob Hills are down in the Bay Area. It’s Raleys and Bel Air up in Sac. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-day-termination-of-tenancy-any-idea-how-to-go-over-the-managers-head/671004.md?page=4)