# 60+ days and no "War"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 13, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153 "2001-11-13T17:48:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/1 "2001-11-13T17:48:17Z")
Did Congress officially declare War yet? And, is that way this “war” has been merely an “operation” when spoken about officially? Will it be called the American-Afghani War?
For the history books,
- Jinx
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/2 "2001-11-13T18:06:07Z")
We refer to the Korean War and the Vietnam War as wars but IIRC in neither case was war declared (Korea was a ‘Police Action’ I think but I get confused and it may have been Vietnam).
I’m not entirely certain what happens, or what changes, when a war is officially declared by Congress. I would guess that declaring war places more power in the hands of the President…something Congress is loathe to do no matter who is sitting in the Executive Chair.
My guess is Congress will not officially declare war but rather let things continue as they are and if they someday get tired of it they can force the President to withdraw.
---
### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/3 "2001-11-13T18:22:59Z")
Congress could opt to invoke the War Powers Act, which is of dubious constitutionality, but I would be shocked if they did so in this situation.
---
### Author:  [@Kilt-wearin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilt-wearin_man)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/4 "2001-11-13T18:35:04Z")
OK, once a week we get this same post. I guess I’ll answer it this time.
There has been no declaration of war because there is no recognized government in power to declare war against. The Taliban are not recognized by anybody in the world (except, oddly enough, Pakistan) as a governmental body. Therefore, no declaration of war.
---
### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/5 "2001-11-13T18:52:12Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by BobT \*
> \*\*Congress could opt to invoke the War Powers Act, which is of dubious constitutionality, but I would be shocked if they did so in this situation. \*\*
They already have, at least that’s what I assume according to the joint resolution authorizing the use of force against terrorists, adopted by the Senate and the House of Representatives in September:
> [@](#):
>
> TO AUTHORIZE the use of United States armed forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.
>
> WHEREAS, on Sept. 11, 2001, acts of despicable violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and
>
> WHEREAS, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad, and
>
> WHEREAS, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence, and
>
> WHEREAS, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States,
>
> WHEREAS, the president has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States.
>
> Resolved by the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
>
> Section 1. Short Title
>
> This joint resolution may be cited as the “Authorization for Use of Military Force”
>
> Section 2. Authorization for Use of United States Armed Forces
>
> (a) That the president is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on Sept. 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
>
> \*\*(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements
>
> (1) Specific Statutory Authorization – Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
>
> (2) Applicability of Other Requirements – Nothing in this resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.\*\*
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/6 "2001-11-13T19:10:32Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Kilt-wearin’ man \*
> **The Taliban are not recognized by anybody in the world (except, oddly enough, Pakistan) as a governmental body.**
It’s not odd that Pakistan recognizes the Taliban. It is ironic, however, that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are responsible for bringing the Taliban to power (hence one of the reasons they were two of the three or four countries that did recognize the Taliban).
That Pakistan continues to recognize the Taliban I believe is strictly for the purposes of keeping at least one diplomatic line open to the Taliban regime and not because Pakistan maintains any real suport for that government.
---
### Author:  [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/7 "2001-11-13T19:56:59Z")
Regarding formal governments: Who the heck cares if we’re declaring war against a formalized government or not? Look what an informal government has done! That’s in direct conflict w/Bush’s proclamation: “we shall make no distinction between these terrorists and those who harbor them.” He should go to Congress and ask them for an official declaration of war.
An enemy is an enemy! I mean, if we were invaded from aliens from outer space, would we have to first afirm these beings had an official government? I think we’re being too politically correct, and I wonder why. It must be to appease tensions building in Saudi Arabia…and those already present in Pakistan.
“Hey hey; my, my…there’s more to the picture than meets the eye…hey, hey; my, my…” - Neil Young
- Jinx
---
### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/8 "2001-11-13T20:11:45Z")
There hasn’t been an official Declaration of War from Congress since WWII. They’ve just gone out of style.
Consider the following:
- The War Powers Act limits what the President can do as Commander in Chief without permission from Congress. Congress has given permission to do a lot of stuff already.
- In past wars, congressional action would be required to do things like issue a draft, raise money (by issuing bonds, and creating an income tax, say) and increase the size of the armed forces. Since the 1970s, the military has changed into an all volunteer service with about a gazillion dollars. For anything short of a _major_ war, the manpower and economic resources are already in place.
- A declaration of war would mean comparing a (comparitively) small military conflict to World War II, in a purely psychological way.
- A declaration of war would give the President more power than some trust him with.
---
### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/9 "2001-11-13T20:11:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Jinx \*
> **Regarding formal governments: Who the heck cares if we’re declaring war against a formalized government or not? Look what an informal government has done! That’s in direct conflict w/Bush’s proclamation: “we shall make no distinction between these terrorists and those who harbor them.” He should go to Congress and ask them for an official declaration of war.**
Why? What is this obsession people have with “declaration of war” (and why does it get asked here every five days?) Congress has authorized the use of force. What else needs to be done?
---
### Author:  [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/10 "2001-11-13T20:13:03Z")
Ok, so if this were 1941, we’d say "We’re declaring officially declaring war on Germany, but not Viche French which has no official government…
For the record: Korea was deemed a “police action”, Viet Nam was a “conflict”…and Afghanistan? Af-gone-istan is a “bop-till-ya-drop revenge party”! 😉
War is war…and you can quote me on that!
- Jinx
---
### Author:  [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/11 "2001-11-13T20:16:11Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Jinx \*
> **An enemy is an enemy! I mean, if we were invaded from aliens from outer space, would we have to first afirm these beings had an official government?**
Are you saying that we would/should actually bother to “decalre war” against alien invaders? Or would we simply defend ourselves? Rather like we are doing in Afghanistan…
An official declaration of war is little more than an outdated formality; as **Colibri** mentioned, Congress has already given Bush the necessary power to wage this war. A “declaration” would be superfluous.
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/12 "2001-11-13T20:31:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \*
> \*\*Are you saying that we would/should actually bother to “decalre war” against alien invaders? Or would we simply defend ourselves? Rather like we are doing in Afghanistan…
>
> An official declaration of war is little more than an outdated formality; as **Colibri** mentioned, Congress has already given Bush the necessary power to wage this war. A “declaration” would be superfluous. \*\*
I think you and **Colibri** are minimizing what a declaration of war actually does. I myself don’t know the specifics but why would Congress come-up with something that is the same as declaring war without declaring war? A war is a war by any name you care to give it.
What congress has done is retain as much control over what is happening as they can. I think that is fine in this case but some might argue that the president should be unshackled and allowed to do his thing as he sees fit in a conflict. The idea of Dubya having that much power frightens me but you could still make a case for it.
As to aliens attacking then the answer would be yes, congress should declare war on them. Not because the aliens or anyone else would give a crap but because it allows the president to prosecute the war more freely than he (or she) otherwise might (e.g. re-institute the draft, issue war bonds, I think media restrictions take effect, etc.).
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/13 "2001-11-13T21:19:09Z")
As the last few posters have noted, a Declaration of War has a specific meaning. It is a legal document (in both the national and international arenas) that places certain obligations on the parties involved. It also has a direct effect on such _minor_ details as the enforcement of insurance contracts and (in the U.S. Constitution) it allows the Federal government to suspend various otherwise guaranteed rights of the citizens.
Now, in the last 20 years, or so, more insurance contracts have been written with terrorist exemptions, but Declaring War would allow large numbers of insurers to decline to pay on policies for otherwise covered acts of terrorism (and, if the war had been declared, effective 09/11, far more policies in the WTC could have been voided).
So, _why_ is it so important to have a declared war in this instance? What is gained?
---
### Author:  [@Kilt-wearin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilt-wearin_man)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/14 "2001-11-13T22:03:04Z")
OK, since folks have a problem with the Taliban’s status as “not a friggin’ government, so there’s nobody to declare war on” how about this reason:
It just isn’t necessary.
---
### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/15 "2001-11-13T23:34:54Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole \*
> \*\*I think you and **Colibri** are minimizing what a declaration of war actually does. \*\*
Whoa! Don’t lump me with **Jinx**! My post was directed primarily at the comment that the War Powers Resolution hadn’t been invoked. I said nothing whatever about a declaration of war.
---
### Author:  [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/16 "2001-11-14T00:12:23Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Jinx \*
> \*\* War is war…and you can quote me on that!
> \*\*
If you aren’t prepared to receive answers to your question, do not ask it in GQ.
If you do it again, your posting privileges may be in jeopardy. And you can quote me on that.
---
### Author:  [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/17 "2001-11-14T01:33:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Kilt-wearin’ man \*
> \*\*OK, once a week we get this same post. I guess I’ll answer it this time.
>
> There has been no declaration of war because there is no recognized government in power to declare war against. The Taliban are not recognized by anybody in the world (except, oddly enough, Pakistan) as a governmental body. Therefore, no declaration of war. \*\*
I hate to pile on, but there’s historical precedent for formal declarations of war against non-governments. The U.S. declared war on the Barbary pirates in 1801
(The “…to the shores of Tripoli” in the Marine Corp Hymn refers to a Marine action in Tripoli harbor in that conflict).
---
### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/18 "2001-11-14T02:49:47Z")
Except that Congress never declared war on the Barbary Pirates. At various times, Congress was asked if it wanted to declare war on Algiers or Tripoli, but ultimately decided not to.
Instead they just authorized the President to take whatever steps were necessary.
Congress didn’t declare war on anyone until the War of 1812.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/19 "2001-11-14T02:59:12Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The U.S. declared war on the Barbary pirates in 1801.
Really? I have always seen that war described as an undeclared war. Did Congress actually pass a resolution declaring war?
According to [this site](http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mtjhtml/mtjprece.html), the Pasha of Tripoli _did_ declare war on the U.S., but Jefferson merely announced to Congress that he had dispatched a squadron in reply, and no mention is made of a Declaration of War against Tunis, Algiers, or Morocco, against all of which we either fought ot displayed force.
---
### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-days-and-no-war/93153/20 "2001-11-14T03:45:17Z")
Washington, upon Jefferson’s urging, gave Congress three options: war, tribute, or ransom.
In 1792, Congress opted for an annual payment of $100,000, but Algiers wouldn’t go for it. In 1795, everybody settled on $1 million. (Dr. Evil was very happy.)
In 1798, the Navy and the Marine Corps were started in the form we know them as today.
In 1801 the situation worsened and the Bashaw of Tripoli ordered his men to cut down the flagpole at the American consulate, which was an act of war in those days. Jefferson asked Congress if it wanted to declare war. Congress declined.
The closest Congress came to declaring was in 1802 when it authorized the President to use whatever force was necessary to protect American seamen and commerce.
Fighting went on between the Barbary states and the U.S. off an on until 1815, although U.S. ships patrolled the Mediterranean until 1830.
Most of this comes from an article in the Fall 1989 issue of “Constitution”.