# 60 Minutes "Point/Counterpoint": Clinton 1, Dole 0 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182 "2003-03-10T00:49:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/53a042/32.png) [@Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinnie_Virginslayer)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/1 "2003-03-10T00:49:06Z")
**SUBJECT: SHOULD THERE BE TAX CUTS IN THE TIME OF WAR?** While I will take tax cuts anytime, anyway I can get them, Clinton made a clear argument that historically, there are not tax cuts in the time of war in the history of our country. Dole’s response was to make some glib remarks about how the Democrats want the White House, and suggested they both donate their tax cuts to the Clinton library. Dole threw in an analogy as to how life isn’t always an “either/or” situation, in that we don’t have to choose between fighting Iraq or Al Qaeda, since we just captured Sheik Mohammed. How this relates to “tax cuts OR war” was not clear, and Clinton countered that leadership is about making choices. Overall, “guns or butter” is kind of a dry, boring subject that frankly I don’t care much about, and it is hard to judge debating qualities in 90 seconds. However, Clinton was more to the point, and while I agree with Dole, Clinton wins my debating vote because he stayed with the subject. **BILL CLINTON 1 BOB DOLE 0** ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/2 "2003-03-10T00:51:49Z")
Dammit, that’s just not fair! It’s only 4:50 p.m. here on the west coast. ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/3 "2003-03-10T02:43:14Z")
The front page of the 60 minutes website ( [http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml) )lets you view the segment if you click “video” ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/4 "2003-03-10T07:48:57Z")
Clinton: “We shouldn’t cut taxes” Dole: “My cat’s breath smells like catfood” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/5 "2003-03-10T08:05:42Z")
Or, Bill: We shouldn’t cut taxes. Bob: Bill, you ignorant slut! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/6 "2003-03-10T14:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vinnie Virginslayer \* > \*\***BILL CLINTON 1 > BOB DOLE 0** \*\* […on a scale of 10.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2977-2003Mar9.html)🙂 > [@](#): > > The result was so boring, though, that it ranked as strictly a Pyrrhic victory. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/7 "2003-03-10T15:07:22Z")
Bob: "They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say, 'Let ‘em die.’ " ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/8 "2003-03-10T15:53:42Z")
It was torture to watch that. Lets take someone who is charming and have him say something I totally disagree with. Then have someone who is totally un-charismatic and have him say something I totally agree with, and say it poorly at that. Ugh. Clinton did lie a few times though, and Dole never did. The tax cuts two years ago were _huge_. (they were small and haven’t even really taken effect yet.) We’re stronger now than in the 1991 gulf war. (Our forces are are less now than then. Divisions we had then no longer exist.) The deficits we are currenlty running are because of the tax cuts. (It’s the economy, stupid!) Nearly half of the tax cuts went to the top 1%. (This is true, but misleading. The rich pay most of the taxes, the share they got was in proportion to how much they pay.) Bush is making cuts in education and homeland defense. (Cite, please, Mr. President 🙂 ) So, since Clinton was dishonest in most of what he said, I would have to give the debate to Dole, even though he was clearly the less convincing, and coherent, of the two. ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/9 "2003-03-10T16:30:59Z")
Maybe Dole will fare better next week, when he picks the topic. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/10 "2003-03-10T16:58:52Z")
I suppose Bill can’t say anything without the right claiming he’s a liar. > [@](#): > > The tax cuts two years ago were huge. (they were small and haven’t even really taken effect yet.) If the cut is made permanent it will be huge. Unless of course you don’t believe 1.35 Trillion to be huge, then I suppose it just a matter of semantics. However, Clinton never did say that the cut was “huge”. He [said](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/09/clinton_dole/main543295.shtml): "We’re already running big deficits thanks largely to the tax cut two years ago ". In this article in [_Slate_](http://slate.msn.com/id/2078115/) you’ll see that the Budget office admits it. > [@](#): > > We’re stronger now than in the 1991 gulf war. (Our forces are are less now than then. Divisions we had then no longer exist.) I believe this to be an accurate statement. Our satellite guided bombs are much more accurate than the laser guided ones used in Gulf I. Also they’ve developed much better military vehicles for desert warfare. The military is no longer tied to tracked vehicles, which are not ideal to desert conditions. The new vehicles are not tracked, they have tires, and were designed specifically for desert warfare. There are also these really cool non-tracked missile launchers. We have increased night-vision capabilities, and new M-16 scopes. We are far more mobile than we were in 1991, which means we require fewer troops. > [@](#): > > The deficits we are currently running are because of the tax cuts. > (It’s the economy, stupid!) See above > [@](#): > > Nearly half of the tax cuts went to the top 1%. (This is true, but misleading. The rich pay most of the taxes, the share they got was in proportion to how much they pay.) It’s true. No problem. > [@](#): > > Bush is making cuts in education and homeland defense. [cite](http://edworkforce.house.gov/democrats/rel2303.html) [cite](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/134630055_capwatch07.html) In addition Clinton claimed Bush cuts would hurt and [Medicaid](http://www.bazelon.org/newsroom/2-24-03medicaid.htm) [Social Security](http://www.ourfuture.org/docUploads/20020927081539%2Epdf?CFID=132976&CFTOKEN=20181547) Debaser you need to not let your dislike of Clinton get in the way of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/11 "2003-03-10T17:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by light strand \* > If the cut is made permanent it will be huge. He said “the cuts made two years ago.” He was clearly referring to them, not any future cuts. > [@](#): > > However, Clinton never did say that the cut was “huge”. He [said](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/09/clinton_dole/main543295.shtml): "We’re already running big deficits thanks largely to the tax cut two years ago ". Go and listen to it again. He says "We’re already running big deficits thanks largely to the **huge** tax cut two years ago ". I just listened for the third time. He is saying the word huge when referring to the tax cuts two years ago. > [@](#): > > I believe this to be an accurate statement. Our satellite guided bombs are much more accurate than the laser guided ones used in Gulf I. Also they’ve developed much better military vehicles for desert warfare. The military is no longer tied to tracked vehicles, which are not ideal to desert conditions. The new vehicles are not tracked, they have tires, and were designed specifically for desert warfare. There are also these really cool non-tracked missile launchers. We have increased night-vision capabilities, and new M-16 scopes. We are far more mobile than we were in 1991, which means we require fewer troops. There will always be new technology advancements in the military when looking at a 12 year time period. Does this mean that the military is always stronger? No. This is to be expected. If the numbers of units available is dramatically less than it can be said it is “weaker”. Is it accurate to say that the state of the military in the US now is stronger than it was in the peak of WWII? I guess literally it is, but not if you factor in the “inflation” of growing technologies as compared with other countries. Those links don’t work. > [@](#): > > In addition Clinton claimed Bush cuts would hurt and [Medicaid](http://www.bazelon.org/newsroom/2-24-03medicaid.htm) [Social Security](http://www.ourfuture.org/docUploads/20020927081539%2Epdf?CFID=132976&CFTOKEN=20181547) Don’t even [get me started](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168111). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/12 "2003-03-10T17:44:07Z")
The tax cut _were_ huge, they _did_ go almost exclusively to rich people and they _did_ hurt the economy. It is babyish to deny these things ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/13 "2003-03-10T17:48:23Z")
Almost as babyish as stamping your foot and asserting stuff with no proof and then casting aspersions on the maturity of anyone who disagrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/14 "2003-03-10T17:49:07Z")
hmmm, all of those links still work for me. But here are some quotes from the links: > [@](#): > > The Bush budget slashes funding for after-school programs by $400 million \ The Bush budget deeply cuts vocational education by $300 million, which is 25% of the entire program’s budget at a time when young people need vocational skills to find good jobs. And it provides no increase for Pell grants, America’s premier higher education program for the nation’s neediest college students, or the crucial Head Start program. > [@](#): > > In his 2004 budget request, President Bush wants to reduce spending on the Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS) program to $164 million, down from $1.4 billion this year. The 1.35 million dollars were huge cuts made two years ago. They simply haven’t been made permanent. Do you have better information? Do you not find 1.35 million to be huge? So you admit that the military is indeed stronger than it was in 2001, but it’s not as strong as you would like it to be. So now your argument is not that he lied, but that you don’t like the way he framed the truth. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/15 "2003-03-10T17:59:58Z")
Why does everyone remember “Jane, you ignorant slut” but not “Dan, you pompous swine-ass”? Look, guys, if you want to actually understand the issues, you won’t get it from a staged 3-minute swapping of sound bites. This is an entertainment feature on an entertainment show. PS: I do love the way that the military, which was so brutally gutted by the traitor Clinton that it left the nation defenseless, is now strong enough to defeat all the world’s bad guys and intimidate everyone else. Nice job Bush did reversing that problem in only 2 years, with hardly anyone noticing, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/16 "2003-03-10T18:15:30Z")
Is anyone really surprised that Clinton trounced Dole here? Clinton was always a skilled debater, and that much certainly hasn’t changed. Dole sure was funny on those Pepsi ads, though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/17 "2003-03-10T18:17:47Z")
I’m sorry, but you will not call Bill Clinton a traitor while you extole the virtues of Bush who throws the Constitution out the window every chance he gets. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/18 "2003-03-10T18:19:21Z")
**vib** , if you meant that for me, I was being sarcastic. Sorry - I don’t like smilies. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/19 "2003-03-10T18:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > PS: I do love the way that the military, which was so brutally gutted by the traitor Clinton that it left the nation defenseless, is now strong enough to defeat all the world’s bad guys and intimidate everyone else. Nice job Bush did reversing that problem in only 2 years, with hardly anyone noticing, isn’t it? The cuts in the military were begun under Bush Sr. and were continued under Clinton with the approval of a republican congress. And speaking of “traitors,” let’s not forget that Junior deserted his military division during wartime. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/20 "2003-03-10T18:51:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Why does everyone remember “Jane, you ignorant slut” but not “Dan, you pompous swine-ass”? > \*\* Shameless highjack: He was referring to last week’s Saturday Night Live, which featured Dan Akroyd returning to lampoon the Clinton/Dole point-counterpoint segment. Akroyd delivered the well-known line on that show. Also, I think people remember Akroyd’s line because it was always delivered at the start of his rebuttal. Not a highjack: I think there’s a difference between _disagreeing_ with Clinton and calling him a _liar_. (Well, he _is_ a liar, but not in this case).😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182.md?page=2)