# 60 Minutes "Point/Counterpoint": Clinton 1, Dole 0 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182 "2003-03-10T00:49:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/21 "2003-03-10T19:04:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **Look, guys, if you want to actually understand the issues, you won’t get it from a staged 3-minute swapping of sound bites. This is an entertainment feature on an entertainment show.** Bullshit. If that was true then they would allow the presidential candidates to speak longer during debates. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/22 "2003-03-10T19:32:42Z")
Sorry **Elvis**! My bad! I was totally whoosed! I don’t like smiley, either, but now I know why some people use them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/23 "2003-03-10T20:21:06Z")
Damn. **Elvis** , I just figured out that you whooshed me too. Oops. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/24 "2003-03-10T21:31:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by light strand \* > The 1.35 million dollars were huge cuts made two years ago. They simply haven’t been made permanent. Do you have better information? Do you not find 1.35 million to be huge? Well, only a tiny portion of those 1.35 Trillion dollar cuts have taken effect. This _must_ have been what he was talking about because he was referring to the effects it was having. Unless you are prepared to argue that he was somehow saying that the planned tax cuts over the next 10 years are somehow hurting the economy. It’s crazy to argue that any tax cut can _hurt_ the economy anyway. Tax cuts stimulate the economy. Bush’s tax cut was just too small to really have any effect on the major downturn that was coming. And, yes, 1.35 Trillion is small. Tiny, actually. This number is over a 10 year period in which the government will spend well over 20 Trillion dollars. Since when is a small percentage like that _huge_. If that’s _huge_, then whats the word that you would use to describe what **libertarian** ’s tax cut would look like? In fact, I can remember a debate on the “liberal media” in GD where people used instances of the press referring to the tax cut as “huge, large, or massive, etc” for a good example of proving liberal leanings, because the cuts clearly were very small. > [@](#): > > So you admit that the military is indeed stronger than it was in 2001, but it’s not as strong as you would like it to be. I admit no such thing. I acknowledged that yes, we have some technologies now that we didn’t then. However, we have less armed forces now than then, and this is what would commonly be reffered to as the “strength” of the US military. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/25 "2003-03-10T21:43:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*And speaking of “traitors,” let’s not forget that Junior deserted his military division during wartime. \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/26 "2003-03-10T22:01:28Z")
You must have missed the part where the _Slate_ article quotes The White House budget office as stating: > [@](#): > > An economic slowdown began in 2001 and was exacerbated by the terrorists’ attacks of September 11, 2001. The deterioration in the performance of the economy together with income tax relief provided to help offset the economic slowdown and additional spending in response to the terrorist attacks produced a drop in the surplus to $127.1 billion (1.3% of GDP) and a return to deficits ($157.8 billion, 1.5% of GDP) in 2002 Of course you won’t consider this large, but there is no question that the tax cuts contributed to the deficit. The military being as strong as you’d like does not equal weaker no matter how many times you say it. I must admit I admire your tenacity in the face of facts. Bush AWOL [cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A4291-2000Nov2¬Found=true) Since you seem to have trouble with my links here is some relevent info (from the Washington Post Friday, November 3, 2000) > [@](#): > > Bush signed up with the Texas National Guard for six years in May 1968, which allowed him to avoid the Vietnam draft. He became an F-102 pilot in 1970 but made his last flight in April 1972 before moving to Alabama to work on a GOP Senate campaign. The dispute centers on what he did in the Guard between that point and September 1973, when he entered Harvard Business School. > > snip > > According to the torn Air Reserve Forces sheet, Bush continued to compile service credits after returning to Houston, winding up his fifth year with 56 points, six above the minimum needed for retention. However, Bush’s annual effectiveness report, signed by two superiors, says “Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report,” May 1, 1972, to April 30, 1973. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/27 "2003-03-10T22:25:44Z")
From [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163799&highlight=Bush+AWOL) Pit thread: [http://awolbush.com/](http://awolbush.com/) These people clearly have an agenda, but some of their evidence is provocative. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*Cite? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![cheepdogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@cheepdogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheepdogg)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/28 "2003-03-11T00:23:51Z")
Tax cuts for the rich? I bet most of you here, including myself, got that $300 or $600 check in the mail last year. In fact, My tax refund this year is LARGER than it was last year. And I made less money! I make under $30k a year…Does that mean I got the tax cut because I’m wealthy? I think you Libs need to define “wealthy”. I can already see that Uncle Sam is taking less from my paycheck than last year. And trust me, It helps. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/29 "2003-03-11T01:09:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cheepdogg \* > **I bet most of you here, including myself, got that $300 or $600 check in the mail last year.** Were you aware that that check was basically considered an early refund? If you paid attention, that was factored into any refund that you got and was _deducted_ from it. Some people (I know a few of them), actually had to _pay some of that check back_ last year. These people would have otherwise had a refund, but wound up having to pay instead. Those checks were not a “tax cut” by any definition. They were more like a cash advance. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cheepdogg \* > \*\*In fact, My tax refund this year is LARGER than it was last year. And I made less money! > I make under $30k a year…Does that mean I got the tax cut because I’m wealthy? I think you Libs need to define “wealthy”. I can already see that Uncle Sam is taking less from my paycheck than last year. And trust me, It helps. \*\* Individual anecdotes are next to useless when talking about tax law, at least without more info than you’ve provided. What else changed for you last year? You already said your income was lower… did it put you in a lower tax bracket? Did your living arrangements change, did you get a credit for something you bought? Do you own your own business? _You_ may be getting less taken out, but it ain’t the same for everyone. The issue is the law itself, and it clearly gives more benefit to the wealthy than it does to middle- and lower-classes. If you have a general refutation for that, I’d love to see it. ---
**Author:** ![cheepdogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@cheepdogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheepdogg)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/30 "2003-03-11T01:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*The issue is the law itself, and it clearly gives more benefit to the wealthy than it does to middle- and lower-classes. If you have a general refutation for that, I’d love to see it. \*\* Interesting…Do you have any info about what income levels the tax cut affects? I’ve tried looking on the IRS web site but I couldn’t find that info. HELP!!! If I could see the info with my own eyes, it would really be an eye-opener. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![cheepdogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@cheepdogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheepdogg)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182/31 "2003-03-11T02:04:52Z")
Nevermind…I found some stats [http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/overview/egtrra.cfm](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/overview/egtrra.cfm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/60-minutes-point-counterpoint-clinton-1-dole-0/160182.md?page=1)