# 65th Anniversary of bombing Hiroshima **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698 "2010-08-09T12:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/241 "2010-08-11T20:27:23Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > These were the guys who were directly in the High Command of the US military (including the Pacific fleets) at the time. They weren’t exactly bleeding heart liberals either. Did they not know what they were talking about? Do you know better than they did? > > Interesting that Leahy specifically mentions the conventional bombing campaign and the naval blockade that you consider to be cowardly, unjustifiable tactics. I wouldn’t do those things, but I don’t condemn them at anywhere near the same level as the dropping of two completely unnecessray atomic bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/242 "2010-08-11T20:30:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > Here is what Eisenhower said: Interesting. Did you actually read it? So…Eisenhower is given a briefing in Germany (at his headquarters). > [@](#): > > During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face’. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude." What does he base his assertion that ‘Japan was already defeated on’, exactly? He seemingly has no special knowledge, being the allied commander in EUROPE. His experience was with Germany, where, as the war drew to a close, German soldiers were increasingly more apt to surrender than fight to the death, and where civilians fled towards the allies (read: non-Soviet) for protection. Contrast this to the closing battles, such as Okinawa. The situation was completely different, and it’s understandable that Eisenhower, who was familiar with how things were in Europe, would make such an offhand statement, since, again, he had no special knowledge of the tactical or strategic situation in Japan. You are basically just appealing to authority here by tossing around Eisenhower’s name and a brief comment he made. As for the others, I don’t have the time or energy to go through each one right now (maybe another poster will be willing to play this game with you), but overwhelmingly the people who were in the know during the decision process agreed that Japan was far from defeated, and it was going to take either an invasion (which we were preparing to do) or dropping those bombs…or, worst case, both. -XT [/QUOTE] So basically the best you can do is that Eisenhower was in Europe, and therefore knew less about the Japanese theater than you do. The Commander of the Pacific fleet and Truman’s own Chief of staff both also said the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unnecessary. Were they in the loop enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/243 "2010-08-11T20:33:10Z")
And if I remember right, the Allies would accept nothing less than an unconditional surrender from Japan. And Japan was not ready for THAT. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/244 "2010-08-11T20:36:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wouldn’t do those things, but I don’t condemn them at anywhere near the same level as the dropping of two completely unnecessray atomic bombs. Well first he listed them as winning the war and the reason that the atom bombs were unnecessary. Seeing as you are down with the silly hypotheticals involving other people’s children, which would you prefer - to have your child vaporized almost instantly or to have your child slowly starved to death? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/245 "2010-08-11T20:41:19Z")
I would choose not to inflict either. I can’t control what other people do. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/246 "2010-08-11T20:42:49Z")
Answer the question. It’s not about which you would inflict, it is about which you would prefer. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/247 "2010-08-11T20:45:21Z")
> **[Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki)** > > Substantial debate exists over the ethical, legal, and military aspects of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on 6 August and 9 August 1945 at the close of World War II (1939–45). > On 26 July 1945, United States President Harry S. Truman, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and President of China Chiang Kai-shek issued the Potsdam Declaration, which outlined the terms of surrender for the Empire of Japan as agreed upon at the Potsdam Conference. This ultimatum stated if Japan did ... Wow! A lot of the same arguments are found here! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/248 "2010-08-11T20:46:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] So basically the best you can do is that Eisenhower was in Europe, and therefore knew less about the Japanese theater than you do. [/QUOTE] Um, no, you have that twisted (much like most of your positions in this thread). The way it should read is that the best YOU can do is a talking point from a guy who, while famous, had no special knowledge of the subject he was speaking too. That’s called an ‘appeal to authority’. > [@](#): > > The Commander of the Pacific fleet and Truman’s own Chief of staff both also said the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unnecessary. Nimitz had his own reasons for making the statements he did (IIRC, it had to do with infighting between the Navy, Army and the push for a new Air Force, and who would get the lions share of the glory for defeating the Japanese, and thus, the lions share of the new funding in the post-war world. The Navy was seriously concerned that the atomic bomb would make it obsolete). I don’t recall exactly why George Marshall said what he said, but I vaguely remember it had more to do with a dispute over the estimates for the invasion (i.e., and if my memory on this tired old subject is still intact, Marshall didn’t believe the high estimates being given for causality figures, and thought we could do the invasion much easier than most of the commanders in the theater felt it could be done for). > [@](#): > > Were they in the loop enough for you? They were, but that doesn’t mean that their word is gospel, or that they were right. Would you like me to give you some recent examples from the second Gulf War of folks supposedly in the know who actually were wrong about, well, just about everything? The thing is, that there were a lot of people who had a lot of different agendas, and a lot of people who THOUGHT they knew stuff that turned out to be wrong. Fog of war and all that. There certainly were a lot of folks who THOUGHT the Japanese were poised to surrender, but there were a lot of folks who thought that Saddam et al had WMD laying about in Iraq, too…and both sets of folks were wrong. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/249 "2010-08-11T20:46:27Z")
No, it’s about what I would inflict. All my posts in this thread are about what I would be willing to do myself, not about what I would want others to do. I am not responsible for the actions of others and have no choice about them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/250 "2010-08-11T20:49:10Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > [Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki) > > Wow! A lot of the same arguments are found here! 🙂 Yeah, that’s where I got the quotes. I thought I’d linked to it. Guess I forgot. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/251 "2010-08-11T20:49:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, it’s about what I would inflict. All my posts in this thread are about what I would be willing to do myself, not about what I would want others to do. I am not responsible for the actions of others and have no choice about them. Are you really trying to weasel out of the question that badly? It is a very simply question - which would you least like to see done to your child? You have gone on the record here as saying it is less objectionable to vaporize a Japanese child than to starve one to death. Now you would do neither, but would look more kindly on a person who did the latter to a Japanese child than the former. I am assuming given your previous exposition here, you would hold similar views towards someone who did the same to your own child. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/252 "2010-08-11T20:51:29Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > No, it’s about what I would inflict. All my posts in this thread are about what I would be willing to do myself, not about what I would want others to do. I am not responsible for the actions of others and have no choice about them. > > Are you really trying to weasel out of the question that badly? It is a very simply question - which would you least like to see done to your child? It’s an irrelevant question because it involves no choice of action on my part. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/253 "2010-08-11T20:52:11Z")
Just wow. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/254 "2010-08-11T20:53:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@mlees](#): > > > > [Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki) > > > > Wow! A lot of the same arguments are found here! 🙂 > > Yeah, that’s where I got the quotes. I thought I’d linked to it. Guess I forgot. Sorry. I was tickled with the parallels between this thread and the wiki article. If you already linked it, I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/255 "2010-08-11T20:54:06Z")
I didn’t. I thought I did, but I forgot to. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/256 "2010-08-11T21:07:25Z")
I did not realise it, but the Japanese Emporer himself referred to the Abomb in his radio address, August 15, announcing Japan’s intention to surrender. “The enemy, moreover, has begun to employ a new most cruel bomb, the power which to do damage is indeed incalculable, taking toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would only result in the ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation . . . but would lead also to the total extinction of human civilization. Such being the case, how are We to save millions of Our subjects, or ourselves, to atone before the hallowed spirits of our Imperial ancestors? This is the reason We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the Powers.” Was Hirohito lying, Dio? As a sidebar, how’s this for understatement (Emporer Hirohito, again): “[The war is]Our sincere desire to ensure Japan’s self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia…”, but “the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan’s advantage.” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/257 "2010-08-11T21:10:41Z")
It should be noted that there were others that advised against using the bomb on Japan. [The Franck Report](http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/franck.html)opposed the nuclear bombing of Japan, both on moral grounds and because of the concerns over a possible arms race. > [@](#): > > Although important tactical results undoubtedly can be achieved by a sudden introduction of nuclear weapons, we nevertheless think that the question of the use of the very first available atomic bombs in the Japanese war should be weighed very carefully, not only by military authorities, but by the highest political leadership of this country. > > Russia, and even allied countries which bear less mistrust of our ways and intentions, as well as neutral countries may be deeply shocked by this step. It may be very difficult to persuade the world that a nation which was capable of secretly preparing and suddenly releasing a new weapon, as indiscriminately as the rocket bomb and a thousand times more destructive, is to be trusted in its proclaimed desire of having such weapons abolished by international agreement. We have large accumulations of poison gas, but do not use them, and recent polls have shown that public opinion in this country would disapprove of such a use even if it would accelerate the winning of the Far Eastern war. It is true that some irrational element in mass psychology makes gas poison more revolting than blasting by explosives, even though gas warfare is in no way more “inhuman” than the war of bombs and bullets. Nevertheless, it is not at all certain that American public opinion, if it could be enlightened as to the effect of atomic explosives, would approve of our own country being the first to introduce such an indiscriminate method of wholesale destruction of civilian life. > > Thus, from the “optimistic” point of view – looking forward to an international agreement on the prevention of nuclear warfare – the military advantages and the saving of American lives achieved by the sudden use of atomic bombs against Japan may be outweighed by the ensuing loss of confidence and by a wave of horror and repulsion sweeping over the rest of the world and perhaps even dividing public opinion at home. > > \ > > We believe that these considerations make the use of nuclear bombs for an early unannounced attack against Japan inadvisable. If the United States were to be the first to release this new means of indiscriminate destruction upon mankind, she would sacrifice public support throughout the world, precipitate the race for armaments and prejudice the possibility of reaching an international agreement on the future control of such weapons. > > Much more favorable conditions for the eventual achievement of such an agreement could be created if nuclear bombs were first revealed to the world by a demonstration in an appropriately selected uninhabited area. Clearly, these people believed there were moral and pragmatic reasons for not bombing Japan. They were dead-on balls accurate WRT how the arms race would develop. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/258 "2010-08-11T21:12:56Z")
[QUOTE=DragonAsh] Clearly, these people believed there were moral and pragmatic reasons for not bombing Japan. They were dead-on balls accurate WRT how the arms race would develop. [/QUOTE] Do you believe that an arms race would NOT have happened without Hiroshima and Nagasaki? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/259 "2010-08-11T21:24:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Commander of the Pacific fleet and Truman’s own Chief of staff both also said the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unnecessary. Were they in the loop enough for you? Good thing they were overruled by people who disagreed, else there coulda been a disastrous toddler-burning invasion that fails, forcing the bomb’s use anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/260 "2010-08-11T21:37:18Z")
They wouldn’t have needed an invasion. The Japanese were already suing for peace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698.md?page=14)