# 65th Anniversary of bombing Hiroshima **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698 "2010-08-09T12:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/61 "2010-08-10T16:48:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > Irrelevant. The fact that the Japanese military killed civilians does not justify US killing civilians. The civilians we slaughtered were just as innocent as the people they slaughtered. It’s not irrelevant. In fact, it’s completely relevant, since it demonstrates that all sides used the same basic strategies and tactics [/quote] This is not a relevant point. It doesn’t _matter_ what the other side does. It doesn’t change the moral culpability of our own side. It’s wrong to kill innocent people, period. It’s no justification to say that somebody else has done it too. Just because Ted Bundy was a serial killer doesn’t mean it’s ok for everybody else to be a serial killer. What kind of logic is that? > [@](#): > > I’m not a moral relativist. Wrong is wrong. Then all sides were wrong, all sides were evil, and that leaves us where, exactly? [/quote] With an honest admission, hopefully. > [@](#): > > Seemingly with your hatred of the US Oh, Christ, don’t pull out THIS bullshit, please. > [@](#): > > and a large case of dual standards (since you seem merely focused on what WE did, don’t seemingly care what others did, and simply want to get on your high horse. The question in the OP was about what WE did, and nothing anyone else did has any relevance to the answer to that question. If somebody starts a thread asking about the rape of Nanking, I’ll condemn that too. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/62 "2010-08-10T16:50:06Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Personally, I have a really hard time mustering much sympathy for a country that did the kind of things that the Japanese did in WWII. The United States did just as bad. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/63 "2010-08-10T16:51:02Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Again, that doesn’t make area bombing right Out of interest, what was the alternative to area bombing? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/64 "2010-08-10T16:52:01Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The civilians we slaughtered were just as innocent as the people they slaughtered. > > I’m not defending area bombing, but it’s worth pointing out that in total-war ideology, the other side’s civilians were considered part of the war effort, and if they were in fact not materially contributing to the war effort, it wasn’t for lack of trying – most countries tried to mobilize their civilians for round-the-clock war production and/or support. > > In this case the Japanese civilians in Tokyo are arguably not AS innocent as the Chinese civilians in Nanking, since Tokyo’s population is supposedly contributing to the war effort of an aggressor state and Nanking’s population was essentially just sitting there going about the business of life when Japan invaded. > > Again, that doesn’t make area bombing right – I am merely addressing the conceit that both groups were exactly equivalently “innocent.” The Japanese children and babies we set on fire had moral culpability for what their goivernment had done? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/65 "2010-08-10T16:54:13Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Sailboat](#): > > > > Again, that doesn’t make area bombing right > > Out of interest, what was the alternative to area bombing? Just quitting and going home would have worked. Or fighting like men. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/66 "2010-08-10T16:58:29Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Irrelevant. The fact that the Japanese military killed civilians does not justify US killing civilians. The civilians we slaughtered were just as innocent as the people they slaughtered. > > Why is a person who supports the oppressive regime any more innocent than a conscript soldier? We set toddlers on fire. What were they culpable for? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/67 "2010-08-10T17:00:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Just quitting and going home would have worked. Or fighting like men. We were at home. And we were trying to keep it our home. Why are factory workers less culpable than conscripts? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/68 "2010-08-10T17:00:36Z")
I like the euphemism “area bombing,” by the way. Just call it what it was. We were bombing civilians. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/69 "2010-08-10T17:01:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > We set toddlers on fire. What were they culpable for? A tragedy. If it were avoidable, it should have been avoided. But it wasn’t. And the ultimate responsibilities for those deaths lies with the governments that initiated the wars, and the people who supported those governments. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/70 "2010-08-10T17:03:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I like the euphemism “area bombing,” by the way. Just call it what it was. We were bombing civilians. Precision bombing is also bombing civilians too. The reason to use area bombing as a term is to distinguish it from that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/71 "2010-08-10T17:03:08Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] This is not a relevant point. It doesn’t matter what the other side does. It doesn’t change the moral culpability of our own side. It’s wrong to kill innocent people, period. It’s no justification to say that somebody else has done it too. Just because Ted Bundy was a serial killer doesn’t mean it’s ok for everybody else to be a serial killer. What kind of logic is that? [/QUOTE] Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. Leaving aside your silly attempt at analogy with Ted Bundy (let’s just forget you mentioned that, since it really is off the edge), the fact that every major nation involved in a given conflict engaged in the same conduct is a pretty firm indication that they viewed things differently than you do. You seem to be assuming that there is some sort of moral yardstick by which every human society in history can be measured against. It’s funny that this yardstick just happens to be your own, however. > [@](#): > > With an honest admission, hopefully. That all sides didn’t conform to your (future) moral yardstick? That they should apologize because they couldn’t break out of their own times and thought processes, and realize that 60 years in the future folks would look down on them (collectively, as not just a country or society, but an entire world of wrong headed evil)? > [@](#): > > Oh, Christ, don’t pull out THIS bullshit, please. My thoughts exactly, reading through your posts in this thread. Gods…not again! I thought we just cleaned the stable… > [@](#): > > The question in the OP was about what WE did, and nothing anyone else did has any relevance to the answer to that question. If somebody starts a thread asking about the rape of Nanking, I’ll condemn that too. You can’t answer the question without putting it into it’s historical context, or looking at the thinking and strategy/tactics being employed at the time. You can’t look back in hindsight with the information and moral yardstick we have TODAY, and judge the people by that yardstick. Not and have any sort of meaningful discussion on the subject. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/72 "2010-08-10T17:03:54Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Just quitting and going home would have worked. Or fighting like men. > > We were at home. And we were trying to keep it our home. We were in the Pacific, and our home was not under any threat anymore. > [@](#): > > Why are factory workers less culpable than conscripts? I already addressed this above. It’s a disingenuous and inaccurate way to frame the comparison. We killed babies. Babies don’t work in factories and don’t support regimes. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/73 "2010-08-10T17:05:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > > > Personally, I have a really hard time mustering much sympathy for a country that did the kind of things that the Japanese did in WWII. > > The United States did just as bad. I think the sadistic medical experiments and systematic mass rape that the Japanese did were worse than bombing civilians. That’s just my opinion, though. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/74 "2010-08-10T17:07:52Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The Japanese children and babies we set on fire had moral culpability for what their goivernment had done? [/QUOTE] Chinese babies bayoneted, bombed, blown apart, shot or burned alive had culpability? How about English babies? German? Russian? French? Italian? Polish? Fin? Belgian? Pacific Islander? The only reason US babies aren’t added to the list is simply because none of the major combatants could get to us (though Germany planned bombing raids on New York and several other East Coast cities, if they could have worked out the technical problems). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/75 "2010-08-10T17:10:26Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > We set toddlers on fire. What were they culpable for? > > A tragedy. If it were avoidable, it should have been avoided. But it wasn’t. And the ultimate responsibilities for those deaths lies with the governments that initiated the wars, and the people who supported those governments. It was completely avoidable. That’s complete bullshit. The bombings had no defensive purpose. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/76 "2010-08-10T17:14:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I already addressed this above. It’s a disingenuous and inaccurate way to frame the comparison. We killed babies. Babies don’t work in factories and don’t support regimes. Babies died. The intent was not to kill babies. It was a foreseeable and acceptable though undesirable consequence of the action whose intent was to reduce the ability of the Japanese Empire to wage a war of aggression. I presume for consistency sake you equally think the naval blockade of Japan was cowardly and not fighting like men? Presumably ships should have been boarded, the cargo that could be absolutely proven was only going to the military thrown overboard, and the ship allowed to proceed peacefully with its cargo of fuel, drugs, food or whatever? Presumably also ground operations into an area where civilians are located becomes cowardly and not fighting like a man. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/77 "2010-08-10T17:15:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was completely avoidable. That’s complete bullshit. The bombings had no defensive purpose. It was avoidable by not bombing Japan. Similarly deaths of children from malnutrition were avoidable by not blockading Japan. And deaths of children on Okinawa were avoidable by not invading Okinawa. Just as deaths of Japanese conscripts were avoidable by not fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/78 "2010-08-10T17:19:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > This is not a relevant point. It doesn’t matter what the other side does. It doesn’t change the moral culpability of our own side. It’s wrong to kill innocent people, period. It’s no justification to say that somebody else has done it too. Just because Ted Bundy was a serial killer doesn’t mean it’s ok for everybody else to be a serial killer. What kind of logic is that? Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. Leaving aside your silly attempt at analogy with Ted Bundy (let’s just forget you mentioned that, since it really is off the edge), the fact that every major nation involved in a given conflict engaged in the same conduct is a pretty firm indication that they viewed things differently than you do. [/quote] I don’t give a shit how they viewed things. It couldn’t be less relevant how they viewed things. Iwas asked how **I** viewed things. The Nazis viewed themselves as justified too. That’s an asinine way to try to justify anything. The Bundy analogy was completely valid, by the way. One innocent victim is the same as any other innocent victim. You can’t justify setting toddlers on fire because somebody else did to another group of toddlers. > [@](#): > > You seem to be assuming that there is some sort of moral yardstick by which every human society in history can be measured against. That is correct. I am a moral absolutist. > [@](#): > > It’s funny that this yardstick just happens to be your own, however. EVERYBODY uses their own moral yardstick. What other yardstick is there, and why would I abandon my own to use somebody else’s? > [@](#): > > That all sides didn’t conform to your (future) moral yardstick? That they should apologize because they couldn’t break out of their own times and thought processes, and realize that 60 years in the future folks would look down on them (collectively, as not just a country or society, but an entire world of wrong headed evil)? I don’t care if they apologize, I’m just syaing what they did was morally wrong. I don’t care how they FELT about it. I’m talking about how **I** feel about it. I also don’t buy that they didn’t know it was immoral to set toddlers on fire. That’s a complete load. > [@](#): > > You can’t answer the question without putting it into it’s historical context, or looking at the thinking and strategy/tactics being employed at the time. You can’t look back in hindsight with the information and moral yardstick we have TODAY, and judge the people by that yardstick. Not and have any sort of meaningful discussion on the subject. Yes I can, and yes I do. I don’t cotton to moral relativism. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/79 "2010-08-10T17:21:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > The Japanese children and babies we set on fire had moral culpability for what their goivernment had done? Chinese babies bayoneted, bombed, blown apart, shot or burned alive had culpability? How about English babies? German? Russian? French? Italian? Polish? Fin? Belgian? Pacific Islander? The only reason US babies aren’t added to the list is simply because none of the major combatants could get to us (though Germany planned bombing raids on New York and several other East Coast cities, if they could have worked out the technical problems). [/QUOTE] What is the relevance of this post? How does it justify setting Japanese toddlers on fire? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/80 "2010-08-10T17:22:35Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > It was completely avoidable. That’s complete bullshit. The bombings had no defensive purpose. > > It was avoidable by not bombing Japan. Similarly deaths of children from malnutrition were avoidable by not blockading Japan. And deaths of children on Okinawa were avoidable by not invading Okinawa. Just as deaths of Japanese conscripts were avoidable by not fighting back. Correct. All avoidable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698.md?page=5)