# 65th Anniversary of bombing Hiroshima **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698 "2010-08-09T12:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/81 "2010-08-10T17:24:19Z")
Then avoidable becomes a meaningless term. Congratulations. I will agree all deaths inflicted by a country’s military are avoidable. Whoop-de-freaking-do. Now forgive me while I say a mental word of thanks to Bomber Command and Arthur Harris. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/82 "2010-08-10T17:24:23Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The United States did just as bad. > > I think the sadistic medical experiments and systematic mass rape that the Japanese did were worse than bombing civilians. That’s just my opinion, though. I’m sure your opinion would have been a great comfort to the toddlers we set on fire. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/83 "2010-08-10T17:26:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > It was avoidable by not bombing Japan. Similarly deaths of children from malnutrition were avoidable by not blockading Japan. And deaths of children on Okinawa were avoidable by not invading Okinawa. Just as deaths of Japanese conscripts were avoidable by not fighting back. > > Correct. All avoidable. Just out of curiosity, were the rapes and murders in Nanking avoidable as well? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/84 "2010-08-10T17:28:49Z")
The whole ‘they did this’ vs ‘they did that’ argument is meaningless. I fucking hate arguments that always boil down to, ‘well, Japan raped Nanking so the bomb is justified’. Like you can decide on some sort of standard for pecking order as to how evil actions are? Japan’s actions in WWII are well-known and reprehensible. Less well-known - but equally reprehensible - is the mass rape and other war crimes committed by French troops in Morocco, Russian troops in a variety of places, Canadian troops in Leonforte, US troops in Italy, etc etc. Guess what, war sucks. If you want to debate these acts, feel free to do so, but do it in another thread. These factors are \*completely separate \*\*and irrelevant \*to the issues of why the war was fought or if the bomb needed to be dropped or not. **xtisme** , you’re correct in that the US never joined the League of Nations because they never ratified the Treaty of Versailles. The racial equality pledge was to be part of the League’s Charter. The US vetoed it under pressure from Great Britain, which was under pressure from Australia and the White Australia policy (i.e., restricting non-white immigration). ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/85 "2010-08-10T17:30:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m sure your opinion would have been a great comfort to the toddlers we set on fire. Easy way to win a battle against any **Diogenes** commanded military. Bring along a toddler into combat with each unit, as he’ll support surrendering rather than being a “coward” and engaging that unit. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/86 "2010-08-10T17:32:19Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I already addressed this above. It’s a disingenuous and inaccurate way to frame the comparison. We killed babies. Babies don’t work in factories and don’t support regimes. > > Babies died. The intent was not to kill babies. It was a foreseeable and acceptable though undesirable consequence of the action whose intent was to reduce the ability of the Japanese Empire to wage a war of aggression. I disagree with this. That’s exactly what it was. The intent was to demoralize the Japanese by causing as much physical and emotional suffering as possible, and that meant intentionally killing their chiildren. Even if I was to accept this specious assertion that it wasn’t the intent, it also wasn’t Timothy McVeigh’s intent to bomb a day care center. That doesn’t really make any moral difference, though, does it? > [@](#): > > I presume for consistency sake you equally think the naval blockade of Japan was cowardly and not fighting like men? Presumably ships should have been boarded, the cargo that could be absolutely proven was only going to the military thrown overboard, and the ship allowed to proceed peacefully with its cargo of fuel, drugs, food or whatever? Presumably also ground operations into an area where civilians are located becomes cowardly and not fighting like a man. Yes to the questions about the blockade. As to ground operations, it depends on exactly what you mean. Nothing that hurts civilians would be justified, but simply moving on the ground to get to a military target is fine. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/87 "2010-08-10T17:34:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Correct. All avoidable. > > Just out of curiosity, were the rapes and murders in Nanking avoidable as well? Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/88 "2010-08-10T17:36:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is the relevance of this post? How does it justify setting Japanese toddlers on fire? Because part of war means you set toddlers on fire, because the toddlers are the enemy. Every single Japanese man, woman, and child was the enemy in the war, even the ones who didn’t directly fight, even the ones who were opposed to what their government was doing. That’s what total war is. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/89 "2010-08-10T17:37:56Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The whole ‘they did this’ vs ‘they did that’ argument is meaningless. I fucking hate arguments that always boil down to, ‘well, Japan raped Nanking so the bomb is justified’. Like you can decide on some sort of standard for pecking order as to how evil actions are? Of course you can, as is ridiculously obvious. Otherwise there is no way to tell if the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were any worse than jaywalking. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/90 "2010-08-10T17:39:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Just out of curiosity, were the rapes and murders in Nanking avoidable as well? > > Of course. Then please explain, if you are serious, how the Allies could have compelled the Japanese to avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/91 "2010-08-10T17:40:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nothing that hurts civilians would be justified. This is completely unsustainable, especially in a situation where military and civilians live closely together. And your raising of any civilian above any military personnel for protection shows scant lack of sympathy for the conscripts of dictatorships. I guess they are more worthy of dying than the supporters of said dictator who use their influence to stay out of the military. Even if it was “disingenuous and inaccurate” before (which it wasn’t), it isn’t now. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/92 "2010-08-10T17:42:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Of course. > > Then please explain, if you are serious, how the Allies could have compelled the Japanese to avoid it. Asked them nicely. Suggested it would be sporting of them not to. Told the Chinese to move to a different country and stop being killed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/93 "2010-08-10T17:43:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > Out of interest, what was the alternative to area bombing? > > Just quitting and going home would have worked. Or fighting like men. We had the choice of killing 100,000 people with an atomic bomb. Or of prolonging the war and ending it a “honorable” way like an invasion or a blockade - which would have killed several million people. As for going home and not fighting, they tried that in 1938 and the result was Hitler overran Europe and killed tens of millions. Maybe it’s my lack of principles, but I think killing 5,000,000 people is worse than killing 100,000. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/94 "2010-08-10T17:45:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > What is the relevance of this post? How does it justify setting Japanese toddlers on fire? > > Because part of war means you set toddlers on fire, because the toddlers are the enemy. Every single Japanese man, woman, and child was the enemy in the war, even the ones who didn’t directly fight, even the ones who were opposed to what their government was doing. That’s what total war is. Then total war is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/95 "2010-08-10T17:46:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Of course. > > Then please explain, if you are serious, how the Allies could have compelled the Japanese to avoid it. They couldn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/96 "2010-08-10T17:46:22Z")
To be fair, **Little Nemo** , under **Diogenes** ’s restrictions there couldn’t have been an invasion. There is simply no way of doing it without knowingly hurting civilians, and as he has said, nothing that hurts civilians is justifiable. So no invasion of the home islands. No island hopping. No action against Imperial Japan at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/97 "2010-08-10T17:48:19Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Nothing that hurts civilians would be justified. > > This is completely unsustainable, especially in a situation where military and civilians live closely together. And your raising of any civilian above any military personnel for protection shows scant lack of sympathy for the conscripts of dictatorships. I guess they are more worthy of dying than the supporters of said dictator who use their influence to stay out of the military. > > Even if it was “disingenuous and inaccurate” before (which it wasn’t), it isn’t now. I don’t think we had to fight at all. We should have just gotten out of the Pacific and fucked off back home after V-E Day. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/98 "2010-08-10T17:48:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Maybe it’s my lack of principles, but I think killing 5,000,000 people is worse than killing 100,000. Apparently **Dragon Ash** does not agree. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/99 "2010-08-10T17:49:22Z")
> [@villa](#): > > To be fair, **Little Nemo** , under **Diogenes** ’s restrictions there couldn’t have been an invasion. There is simply no way of doing it without knowingly hurting civilians, and as he has said, nothing that hurts civilians is justifiable. > > So no invasion of the home islands. No island hopping. No action against Imperial Japan at all. Correct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/100 "2010-08-10T17:51:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Just quitting and going home would have worked. Or fighting like men. > > We had the choice of killing 100,000 people with an atomic bomb. Or of prolonging the war and ending it a “honorable” way like an invasion or a blockade - which would have killed several million people. As for going home and not fighting, they tried that in 1938 and the result was Hitler overran Europe and killed tens of millions. > > Maybe it’s my lack of principles, but I think killing 5,000,000 people is worse than killing 100,000. I think this is a false choice. Japan was no threat to us. If we’d just left, nothing more would have happened. Not to us anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698.md?page=6)