# 65th Anniversary of bombing Hiroshima **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698 "2010-08-09T12:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/161 "2010-08-11T03:58:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If I stand by and watch a child drown, to be sure, I’m responsible for that child’s death. That’s not the same thing at all. The child wouldn’t be dying by anyone else’s actions, and saving the child would not require you to set any toddlers on fire. > [@](#): > > Can you quote me saying Germany was no threat to US? IIRC, I said that neither Germany nor Japan could invade the US Well then neither country was a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/162 "2010-08-11T04:00:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So, **Diogenes** , what would you have had us do the day after Pearl Harbor? After Hitler declared war on us? Nothing. > [@](#): > > And should we have declined to aid our allies in Europe? Yes. > [@](#): > > How is your attitude any different from that of Neville Chamberlain? Neville Chamberlain gave away land. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/163 "2010-08-11T04:28:02Z")
So what SHOULD we have done when Japan and Hitler declared war? Just sat around with our thumbs up our asses? You think they’d just say, “Oh, gee, they’re not going to fight, oh well, never mind.” What should the Allies have done? Or China? The longer the war went on, the more of those toddlers you’re so concerned about would have died. Whether they be from Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Russia, Italy, etc. Imperial Japan had to be stopped. For godsakes, did you even READ the links I posted? (I’d pit **Dio** , but at this point, I don’t have the patience for it.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/164 "2010-08-11T05:13:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Neville Chamberlain gave away land. What if the only way you could keep your land was setting babies on fire? Would one baby-on-fire be worth, say, ten square miles of land? If not, then would that mean you think land is more valuable than unburned babies? How monstrous. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/165 "2010-08-11T05:23:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So what SHOULD we have done when Japan and Hitler declared war? Already answered. Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/166 "2010-08-11T11:58:28Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > SUMMARY REPORT > (Pacific War) > > WASHINGTON, D.C. > 1 JULY 1946 > > Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. > > [United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (Pacific War)](http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm#teotab) Informed Dopers should stop referencing the United States Strategic Bombing Survey as if it’s a non-biased stand alone reference. It’s not. It was written by the Army Air Forces to support and justify the creation of a separate military department for the Air Force, (which was created in 1947) by touting the effects of strategic bombing. Because the survey was a tool used by supporters of the Air Force to justify their existence, it’s not at all surprising that it states that strategic bombing won the war. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/167 "2010-08-11T14:23:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Guinastasia](#): > > > > So, **Diogenes** , what would you have had us do the day after Pearl Harbor? After Hitler declared war on us? > > Nothing. > > > [@](#): > > > > And should we have declined to aid our allies in Europe? > > Yes. > > > [@](#): > > > > How is your attitude any different from that of Neville Chamberlain? > > Neville Chamberlain gave away land. Not Britain’s land. He just let Germany and Czechoslovakia know that he was declining to aid Britain’s allies in Europe, and that, if Czechoslovakia wanted to avoid war, it would need to make the best deal it could. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/168 "2010-08-11T15:00:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Neville Chamberlain gave away land. Oddly enough other people’s land. Just like you are proposing the US should have done. Now, talking about Germany, and the British area bombing policy in particular. As I asked before, and you didn’t answer, what alternative did Britain have? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/169 "2010-08-11T15:09:29Z")
To fight on the battlefield like men. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/170 "2010-08-11T15:10:48Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > SUMMARY REPORT > (Pacific War) > > WASHINGTON, D.C. > 1 JULY 1946 > > Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. > > [United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (Pacific War)](http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm#teotab) You have to remember that every institution has its own bias. The military leaders who were saying the atom bombings were unnecessary were saying this in the late forties when the American government was planning on scaling down the armed forces to virtually nothing because we could now rely on the atomic bomb for defense. The generals and admirals were making a case for maintaining the regular armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/171 "2010-08-11T15:13:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > To fight on the battlefield like men. Why? The British government had no obligation to protect Germans. It did have an obligation to protect the British. Why send British soldiers off to die in battle when there was an alternative that would produce fewer British casualties? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/172 "2010-08-11T15:14:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Guinastasia](#): > > > > So what SHOULD we have done when Japan and Hitler declared war? > > Already answered. Nothing. What? You mean we should have surrendered in 1941? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/173 "2010-08-11T15:15:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > To fight on the battlefield like men. And how/where was Britain going to do that? And I’d like you to sit your preaching ass down with even one of the heroes of Bomber Command and tell them they were taking the cowards way out. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/174 "2010-08-11T15:25:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > To fight on the battlefield like men. > > Why? The British government had no obligation to protect Germans. It did have an obligation to protect the British. Why send British soldiers off to die in battle when there was an alternative that would produce fewer British casualties? who said anything about sending them to Germany? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/175 "2010-08-11T15:28:22Z")
Bombing German and French docks was an essential part of invasion prevention. If you do that, civilians get killed. Including burned toddlers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/176 "2010-08-11T15:29:24Z")
So don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/177 "2010-08-11T15:38:18Z")
I guess it’s okay if it’s _your_ toddlers burn. By not taking action to prevent it, at least your hands will be clean. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/178 "2010-08-11T15:39:28Z")
Personally I’d rather a few innocent German babies got burned than my country invaded, occupied, and my grandparents certainly incarcerated, and likely executed for their political affiliations. I guess that makes me a bastard. Where was Britain going to fight Germany “on the battlefield like men” to use your quaint, sexist expression? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/179 "2010-08-11T15:48:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Hitler actually was a real threat, and had a real chance to get the bomb first. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [ > Hitler could have gotten the bomb. If you want to argue that our involvement in the European theater was not defensively necessary to the US, I can listen to that, though. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Like I said, Hitler could have gotten the bomb. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Getting a bomb of our own wouldn’t have solved anything. We needed to stop Hitler from doing it. Okay, we got it. Hitler was trying to build a bomb, therefore Hitler had to be stopped. The Japanese weren’t trying to build a bomb, therefore the U.S. had no business getting involved in a war between Japan, China, Korea, Indochina, etc. Except, Japan _was_ trying to build a bomb, [and may even had gotten farther along than the Germans ever did.](http://www.reformation.org/atlanta-constitution.html) > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There’s no moral relativism involved in saying we didn’t know how close Hitler was to getting a bomb. Saying we didn’t know something at a given time is not analogous to saying people had different moral perceptions at a given time. There’s no moral relativism in saying Hitler had to be stopped, but not Japan? Given that Japan and Germany were allies, is it reasonable to assume that the U.S., Britain and Soviets believed they might be sharing information on weapons research? Given that not unreasonable assumption at the time, and the benefit of hindsight in knowing that Japan actually did have an active nuclear weapons program, would you concede that Japan had to be stopped? And, my second question. Since you disapprove of any action that would kill civilians, and since the Chamberlain-Daladier negotiations at Munich had been proven to be spectacularly unsuccessful, what do you propose as an appropriate course of action after September 1, 1939? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698/180 "2010-08-11T15:48:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Already answered. Nothing. > > What? You mean we should have surrendered in 1941? That’s The Great and Powerful Dio you’re addressing. He’d pretend they didn’t exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65th-anniversary-of-bombing-hiroshima/549698.md?page=10)