# 7,000-yr-old European had dark skin and blue eyes **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 28, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923 "2014-01-28T05:09:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/21 "2014-01-30T02:43:01Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > At 7000 years old, he was probably just covered in age spots, not naturally dark skinned. No, no, you do it like: “If you were 7,000 years old, you’d have liver spots too!” [rimshot] ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/22 "2014-01-30T03:51:10Z")
[quote=“nevadaexile, post:19, topic:679923”] [li]People from the Iberian Peninsula - Spaniards,Porteguese,Basques,etc[/li][/QUOTE] Basques from the Iberian Peninsula are Spaniards… those from France, the US, Australia or Costa Rica are not. If you’re going to split Basques, go ahead and talk about Celts, Iberians, Jews, Moors, Goths and the occasional Viking or Japanese. The picture in the article is a lot darker than the baseline of even the darkest no-Black-ancestry Spaniard I’ve ever seen; the tone depicted is what I see in “leatherskins” (people who start sunbathing as soon as temps go above 10C and use UV tanning beds when they’re below) or in people who spend enormous amounts of time in the sun without protection (the occasional farmer or shepherd, nowadays most have heard of sun lotion). ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/23 "2014-01-30T04:14:03Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The picture in the article is a lot darker than the baseline of even the darkest no-Black-ancestry Spaniard I’ve ever seen; the tone depicted is what I see in “leatherskins” (people who start sunbathing as soon as temps go above 10C and use UV tanning beds when they’re below) or in people who spend enormous amounts of time in the sun without protection (the occasional farmer or shepherd, nowadays most have heard of sun lotion). I work with a huge group of immigrants from the Portuguese Azores. They range from roughly Italian or Spanish looking to just plain American white but my office mate comes from an unbroken line of them as well as he is just about as dark as that picture. His whole family is the same way. He told me they always get confused as Middle-Easterners or dark-skinned Latinos but, no, they are 2nd generation 100% European. For that matter, my ex-wife is half-Italian and that branch of the family comes partially from Sicily. They all have dark skin and blue eyes. Their skin isn’t as dark as the photo shown but I am seen pictures of some older ancestors that are. My daughters have brown eyes because I do and both have fair skin in the winter. However, good luck locating my youngest against a black background after a summer of fun. All you can see is a pair of eyes and a smile. That child tans so readily in the sun that she should update her census forms each season. I am fascinated with human origins and migration patterns and have read extensively on it for years. I am a fan of the study in question because it provides some useful information but it also seems both obvious and incomplete. I don’t understand the point the popular press is trying to make out of it unless they think that the vast majority of people believe that all Europeans always had fair skin. That isn’t something that anyone that knows anything about anything believes. It isn’t true even today and obviously wasn’t 7000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/24 "2014-01-30T09:39:45Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Exactly. That is the part that is confusing me too. . Becaused both the picture and the text are indicative of a sub-saharian African skin tone rather than a southern European skin tone . > [@](#): > > The biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed **African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation** of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin," ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/25 "2014-01-30T15:26:11Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Basques from the Iberian Peninsula are Spaniards… those from France, the US, Australia or Costa Rica are not. If you’re going to split Basques, go ahead and talk about Celts, Iberians, Jews, Moors, Goths and the occasional Viking or Japanese. > > The picture in the article is a lot darker than the baseline of even the darkest no-Black-ancestry Spaniard I’ve ever seen; the tone depicted is what I see in “leatherskins” (people who start sunbathing as soon as temps go above 10C and use UV tanning beds when they’re below) or in people who spend enormous amounts of time in the sun without protection (the occasional farmer or shepherd, nowadays most have heard of sun lotion). Actually, they are not. Linguistically and culturally Basques are different from Spaniards. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/26 "2014-01-30T16:18:05Z")
Basques living in the _País Vasco_ are Spanish citizens, and therefore Spaniards. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/27 "2014-01-30T22:13:26Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > There many Europeans who have olive to darker skin and fair colored eyes, including: > > [ol] > [li]Italians - Particularly Sicilians and Calabrians[/li][li]Slavs - Especially those from the Balkans[/li][li]People from the Iberian Peninsula - Spaniards,Porteguese,Basques,etc[/li][li]People from the Trans-Caucasus - Chechens, Dagestanis, Circassians, Armenians,etc[/li][/ol] > > Why would it surprise people today that Europeans of the past would look different than they do today? IMO, I’d say those Europeans are darker versions of white. And thanks to **clairobscur** for pointing out the African version of the gene. I missed that. So what surprises me, and just about everyone else apparently, is how recent the dark-skinned gene was present in Europe, and how, after 7,000 years, give or take, it has completely vanished. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/28 "2014-01-30T22:29:49Z")
Except it _hasn’t_ vanished from Europe, recent immigrants and their children have reintroduced it to Europe. People have always wandered about, though admittedly that they do it much more rapidly and frequently these days. It is possible that this individual is a statistical fluke, the descendant of an African import to Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/29 "2014-01-30T22:39:33Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > There many **Europeans who have olive to darker skin** and fair colored eyes, including: > > [ol] > [li]Italians - Particularly Sicilians and Calabrians[/li][li]Slavs - Especially those from the Balkans[/li][li] **People from the Iberian Peninsula - Spaniards** ,Porteguese,Basques,etc[/li][li]People from the Trans-Caucasus - Chechens, Dagestanis, Circassians, Armenians,etc[/li][/ol] You can’t generalize like that. My parents are Spanish. I live in Scandinavia. And yet my skin is paler (more pale?) than that of 90% of the locals up here. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/30 "2014-01-30T22:53:51Z")
Even with fortified foods [Rickets](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickets#Diet_and_sunlight) is still an issue for dark skinned people who move to temperate areas. It doesn’t seem out of the question that a switch to a diet lower in vitamin D could have huge impacts in a fairly short amount of time. It also doesn’t seem out of the question that areas in Europe with more sunshine might still have people with darker complexions. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/31 "2014-01-31T16:10:38Z")
Has it escaped the attention that the ‘moors’ [genetic North Africans and the muslim population that may or may not have previously genetically mixed with subsaharan Africans due to population movement associated with slavery and military movement] invaded and garrisoned Sicily, the boot of Italy, Spain and anywhere the Ottoman Empire occupied and invaders rarely keep it in their pants. There is a perfect rational explanation how the dark skin arrived in southern Europe without the cavemen wandering in. Not to mention the Roman Empire was colorblind in its own way - they imported slaves from Africa and had soldiers in it’s military as regular conscripts and as auxiliaries. So while yes, the dude 7000 years back could have the genetics for dark skin and blue eyes [hm, I am brown haired and blue eyed and have enough ginger in me that I don’t have trouble tanning, but I have enough freckles to look like a damned turkey egg and my hair goes red when it sun-bleaches. Og smash!] the dark in the woodpile for Sicilians and other southern European types is a much later influx of African genetics. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/32 "2014-01-31T16:16:01Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > You can’t generalize like that. > > My parents are Spanish. I live in Scandinavia. And yet my skin is paler (more pale?) than that of 90% of the locals up here. I’m not “generalizing” anything. There are many people from Andalusia ( the most populous region of Spain) who are olive skinned or darker and still are considered to “White Europeans.” I don’t know you so I have no idea what you like. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923/33 "2014-01-31T16:20:19Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > There are many people from Andalusia ( the most populous region of Spain) who are olive skinned or darker and still are considered to “White Europeans.” Oh, certainly. I read your “there many [sic] Europeans who have olive to darker skin” list, which included “Spaniards,” as meaning that Spaniards have “olive to darker skin.” When the truth of the matter is, of course, that some of them do, and some of them don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-000-yr-old-european-had-dark-skin-and-blue-eyes/679923.md?page=1)