# 7 deadly sins **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 15, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406 "2003-08-15T16:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![High\_Deity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9a140/32.png) [@High\_Deity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Deity)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/1 "2003-08-15T16:18:55Z")
I know what they are (guilty of most of them today so far). I am curious as to how this list came about. Who formed the list, and why did they select these 7? Just to make sure I’m not nuts… here they are (from memory) Greed Sloth Wraith Pride Gluttony Envy Lust ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/2 "2003-08-15T16:28:24Z")
Becoming a ghost is a deadly sin? (Well, it _would_ be.) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/3 "2003-08-15T16:31:40Z")
[hijack]War Eagle![/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![frixxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@frixxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frixxxx)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/4 "2003-08-15T16:34:18Z")
**LOL…turning in to a ghost…too funny Tom! It’s wrath, not wraith.** :smack: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/5 "2003-08-15T16:39:11Z")
The Encyclopædia Britannica addresses them, thusly: > [@](#): > > _also called_ **Cardinal Sin** , any of the sins, usually numbering seven, dating back to the early history of Christian monasticism; they were grouped together as early as the 6th century by St. Gregory the Great. A sin was classified as deadly not merely because it was a serious offense morally but because “it gives rise to others, especially in the manner of a final cause” or motivation (St. Thomas Aquinas). The traditional catalog of the seven deadly sins is: > (1) vainglory, or pride; > (2) covetousness; > (3) lust, understood as inordinate or illicit sexual desire; > (4) envy; > (5) gluttony, which usually included drunkenness; > (6) anger; and > (7) sloth. > The classical discussion of the subject is in the **Summa Theologica** , by the 13th-century theologian St. Thomas Aquinas. The deadly sins were a popular theme in the morality plays and art of the European Middle Ages. Protestants tend to be divided on the subject, with some recognizing the categories for the reasons given, above, and others rejecting any such list as “not from Scripture” (which no has ever claimed they were), and some going further to claim that it is wrong to even consider such a list because all sin is equal. ---
**Author:** ![jormundgondir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@jormundgondir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jormundgondir)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/6 "2003-08-15T16:50:47Z")
I’m currently reading a book, “Skipping Toward Gomhorrah”, by Dan Savage (of “Savage Love” advice column fame) in which he investigates the deadly sins, and in the preface he outlines them and their history-- lust, sloth, gluttony, greed, pride, envy, and anger – it’s pretty funny, and, dare i say, even educational. Apparently a Greek theologian, Evagrius of Pontus, came up with the initial list: gluttony, lust, avarice/covetousness, sadness, anger, acedia (“not to care”, ie “spiritual sloth”), vainglory, and pride, in increasing order of egregiousness. in the 6th century pope Gregory edited the list, folding vainglory and pride together, dropping acedia into sadness, and adding envy as a new line item to make seven total. Thomas Aquinas later objected to their “ranking” in order of severity, and in the 17th century the church replaced sadness with sloth. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/7 "2003-08-15T17:31:00Z")
The Professor Mary Anne Ginger Giligan Mr Howe Mrs Howe Skipper Black Sea White Sea Carribean Sea Sea of Japan Mediterranean Sea Sargasso Sea Adriatic Sea Shoe Wheelbarrow Steamboat (or Battleship) Racecar Cannon (or Iron) Thimble Horse and Rider (UK only) or Dog (US edition) Doc Sneezy Bashful Grumpy Happy Dopey Sleepy Lighthouse at Alexandria Colossus at Rhodes Pyramids at Ghiza Hanging Garden of Babelon Statue of Zeus the Mausoleum and the tought one… The Temple of Artemis ---
**Author:** ![frixxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@frixxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frixxxx)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/8 "2003-08-15T18:03:38Z")
Paul, you forgot: N. America S. America Europe Asia Africa Australia Antarctica ---
**Author:** ![universe.zip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@universe.zip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/universe.zip)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/9 "2003-08-15T18:19:44Z")
I woulda thought someone called **High Deity** would know… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/10 "2003-08-15T19:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jormundgondir \* > \*\* > Apparently a Greek theologian, Evagrius of Pontus, came up with the initial list: gluttony, lust, avarice/covetousness, sadness, anger, acedia (“not to care”, ie “spiritual sloth”), vainglory, and pride, in increasing order of egregiousness._\* However, it should be noted that Evagrius was not necessarily using the terms as we do. “Gluttony” could also mean fixating on how little food one ate or fixating on whether or not one adhered to every little tiny detail of specified Church fasts and abstentions. In other words, it referred to inordinate concern about food, not merely inordinate desire for food. “Lust” was actually orgininally “Fornication”, very different, eh? Of course, this was the Greek _Πορνεα_, which is also the root for “pornography”. It is inappropriate fixation on sexual matters. While Evagrius (being a monk) concentrated on excess desire, the Passion (“sin”) could also be excess distaste for sexuality. “Avarice” encompasses idle daydreaming and wasting time on fantasies as well as ordinary “greed” for wealth or material gain. “Sadness” is not necessary any sort of sorrow. It refers to the sheer egoism of presuming that the world does or ought to revolve around oneself and then getting miserable when reminded that one is not the center of the universe. “Anger” is one that comes closest to our modern use of the term. However, it also explicitly includes nursing a grudge. “Acedia” goes beyond ordinary apathy. It’s an active hatred of ones path that is bred by a cultivated illusion of worthlessness. It’s the urge to “just give it up, you can’t ever get this to work, it’s too hard for you.” “Vainglory” is better called “vanity of glory”. Like avarice, it is a matter of daydreaming, but while avarice is about idle daydreams and useless lust after material wealth, comfort, and prestige, vain glory is daydreaming about own own holiness, spiritual maturity, intellectual ability, etc. In a way, it’s avarice turned inwards. “Pride” is another that has not changed much, except that we overuse the term “pride” today. There is a difference between honest satisfaction in a job well done and idle pride. Pride is ultimately empty. Thus, to be “proud of” a real achievement in measure with what you actually did is not “Pride” in this sense. It is actually “satisfaction with” what you did. To actually exercise Pride in this sense is to take credit beyond what is due you. ---
**Author:** ![Isabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5a626/32.png) [@Isabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabelle)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/11 "2003-08-15T19:53:34Z")
Simple, it’s Scripture… Proverbs 6:12-19 "A scoundrel and villain, who goes about with a corrupt mouth, who winks with his eye, signals with his feet and motions with his fingers, who plots evil with deceit in his heart- he always stirs up dissension. Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant; he will suddenly be destroyed-without remedy. There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. Philippians 2:3 “Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each other esteem others better than himself.” Romans 1:28-32 “And even as they (unrighteous) did not like to remain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexually immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.” Proverbs 23:20-21 “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags.” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/12 "2003-08-15T20:13:07Z")
The [Master](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010601.html) addresses this very subject. > [@](#): > > To be strictly accurate, the preferred term isn’t seven deadly sins but seven capital vices, which better conveys the thought that the seven aren’t sins in themselves, merely habits or predilections disposing one thereto. This point was made by Saint Gregory the Great in the sixth century AD and later restated by Aquinas. But the term seven deadly sins survives for obvious reasons–it sounds a lot snappier. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/13 "2003-08-15T20:16:57Z")
Ahh, I didn’t get to finish. Regarding this quote, the message I’m getting is that it was more the overindulgence in the behavior specified that constituted the sin, and not necessarily an individual act. In short, you wouldn’t get condemned to the eternal file for enjoying a big meal at Thanksgiving, but if you live for food and drink, then you could be. ---
**Author:** ![alimarx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@alimarx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alimarx)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/14 "2003-08-15T20:18:12Z")
Mary Anne a sin? I’m in trouble… ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/15 "2003-08-15T21:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Paul in Saudi \* > Shoe > Wheelbarrow > Steamboat (or Battleship) > Racecar > Cannon (or Iron) > Thimble > Horse and Rider (UK only) or Dog (US edition) Excuse the nitpick but the standard version of Monopoly in the UK includes six pieces not seven and we have a dog too, not a horse and rider. There are lots of other sevens too, of course, such as the Seven Virtues – Faith, Hope, Charity, Justice, Fortitude, Prudence and Temperence. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/16 "2003-08-15T22:15:07Z")
\*\* Paul in Saudi\*\*: I have a US version of Monopoly and I have _both_ the horse-and-rider and the scotty dog. So nyah! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/17 "2003-08-16T01:56:30Z")
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea Magna Culpa! I was operating from memory. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/18 "2003-08-16T12:12:02Z")
Also… Doric Ionic Corinthian Baroque Composite Tuscan Gothic and… Grammar Rhetoric Logic Artihmatic Geometry Astronomy Music ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/19 "2003-08-16T12:22:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Paul in Saudi \* > Also… > > Doric > Ionic > Corinthian > Baroque > Composite > Tuscan > Gothic > > and… > > Grammar > Rhetoric > Logic > Artihmatic > Geometry > Astronomy > Music You’re pushing it a bit with those selections. What are they supposed to represent definitively? ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406/20 "2003-08-16T12:35:47Z")
And (recovering Catholic School Girl speaking) there’s also the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. Seven seems to be a common number to represent perfection or completeness. Some of these lists overlap. For instance, the Skipper represents wrath; Gilligan, sloth; Ginger, lust; Mary Ann, envy; Mr Howell, greed; Mrs Howell, pride; and the Professor, the inability to build anything useful to get them off the freaking island even though he can make a radio out of coconuts if he tries. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-deadly-sins/195406.md?page=2)