# 7 Jan 2021 and beyond - the aftermath of the storming of the Capitol **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 8, 2021, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020 "2021-01-08T10:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 227
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4531 "2023-08-16T21:25:41Z")
Actually, my intent was to put it in the Georgia indictment thread. DJT is even more powerful than the Shadow: just the very _concept_ of him is enough to cloud mens’ minds. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4532 "2023-08-16T21:29:37Z")
Judge at one of Trump’s trials: _How about now, Mr Trump - do you believe you won the 2020 presidential election?_ Trump: _[If I say no, then I admit it was all a lie. If I say yes, then I have to prove it.] Yes, of course. You’re a nasty judge. Very nasty. What kind of question is that anyway…"_ ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4533 "2023-08-16T21:45:20Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > It’s a joke. Not supposed to add up. That kind of joke is funnier if the math does add up. Like the jokes about how many popes per hectare or acre the Vatican had when Benedict was still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4534 "2023-08-16T21:59:20Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Please show your math. I’m getting a different answer. True fact: The average number of legs on the average American citizen is _less than two._ ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4535 "2023-08-16T22:00:54Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The average living former POTUS has now been indicted approximately twice. And faces 18.2 charges, I think. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4536 "2023-08-17T00:39:25Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > > The average living former POTUS has now been indicted approximately twice. > > And faces 18.2 charges, I think I get 91/4 = 22.75 for that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4537 "2023-08-17T00:53:18Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I get 91/4 = 22.75 for that. …skipping Carter, Clinton, Bush, Obama, or Trump? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4538 "2023-08-17T01:02:14Z")
Oops! Wasn’t skipping anyone, just failed counting. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4539 "2023-08-17T01:50:22Z")
Bush had a conviction for drunk driving, so you can add +1 to the total no of indictments and charges. Any other presidents that have faced charges? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4540 "2023-08-17T02:12:20Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Any other presidents that have faced charges? Not an indictment, but Teddy Roosevelt was sued for defamation because he called a party boss corrupt or something. There is a fascinating book about the trial. Result of the trial blurred: He won Found it > **[New book by Dan Abrams tells the story of Teddy Roosevelt’s 1915 trial in...](https://www.syracuse.com/living/2019/05/new-book-by-dan-abrams-tells-the-story-of-teddy-roosevelts-1915-trial-in-syracuse.html)** > > New book by ABC News legal correspondent Dan Abrams explores the 1915 libel trial against Theodore Roosevelt held in Syracuse. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4541 "2023-08-17T03:35:51Z")
I’ll just post this here: > **[Arrests of Ulysses S. Grant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrests_of_Ulysses_S._Grant)** > > There are three reported arrests of Ulysses S. Grant by officers of the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia (MPD), all for speeding by horse. Grant, who led the Union Army to victory in the American Civil War, was widely known for his prowess as a horseman. The first two arrests were in 1866, when Grant was commanding general; the third is said to have occurred in 1872, when Grant was serving as the president of the United States. While of questionable historicity, the t... I’ve been a little surprised that this doesn’t get posted more often, but I now see that the real story of the 1872 incident isn’t as straightforward as I had thought. It seems there’s only one ‘witness’ to attest to it, the officer who claimed to make the traffic stop, and that seems odd given that Grant was at the time the President of the United States, and just about the most famous person in the world. So maybe it didn’t really happen the way that fellow said, if it happened at all. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4542 "2023-08-17T11:00:54Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I ultimately don’t think what he believed matters one bit, legally - and I’m not sure why anyone feels “Trump believes he’s incapable of losing anything, ever” is any sort of defense. It does matter, at least for some of the cases (I’ve lost track of them all at this point). The latest indictment in Georgia, as I understand it, boils down to “It’s illegal to lie to a state official in regards to their official job” and that’s about it. So when he told Raffensberger that thousands of dead people voted in Georgia, if he truly believed that then it’s not a lie and therefore not a crime (or at least not the crime he’s actually charged with there). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4543 "2023-08-17T11:16:29Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > The latest indictment in Georgia, as I understand it, boils down to “It’s illegal to lie to a state official in regards to their official job” and that’s about it. That’s at best a woefully incomplete understanding of the indictment. [Here’s the actual indictment](https://www.scribd.com/document/665036274/Trump-Indictment-Georgia-081423#download&from_embed). In addition to “making false statements” (not “lying”, a crucial difference), Trump et al are charged with soliciting illegal acts, violating the integrity of voting machines, and more. If the cops seize my car, and I believe their seizure is unconstitutional and illegal, and I go to the impound lot and give the guard a story about how unconstitutional it was and offer them a $20 to look the other way so I can grab my car and leave, I’ve committed a crime.It doesn’t matter if I’m sincere in my false statement. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4544 "2023-08-17T12:54:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve committed a crime.It doesn’t matter if I’m sincere in my false statement. It’s a a crime even if your statement was true. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4545 "2023-08-17T14:21:48Z")
Quite. On some of those charges it seems to this outsider that there’s no wriggle-room of “interpretation” or “honest belief”, let alone freedom of speech. I’m assuming that there is a legally authorised official responsible for determining and declaring the result of the election and providing some sort of official certification to the winning delegates to the Electoral College. Happy to be corrected if I’m wrong, but if I’m not, then any document purporting to be such a certificate, but not issued by that official, is _ipso facto_ fraudulent and/or a forgery: surely, it would be an absolute offence, for anyone knowingly involved in a scheme to create such a document? As they used to say in our old cop shows “They’ve got you bang to rights, chum” - if they can prove the facts, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4546 "2023-08-17T15:08:53Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > if he truly believed that then it’s not a lie and therefore not a crime Look up _Mens Rea_ and get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4547 "2023-08-17T15:20:30Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > It does matter, at least for some of the cases (I’ve lost track of them all at this point). The latest indictment in Georgia, as I understand it, boils down to “It’s illegal to lie to a state official in regards to their official job” and that’s about it. So when he told Raffensberger that thousands of dead people voted in Georgia, if he truly believed that then it’s not a lie and therefore not a crime (or at least not the crime he’s actually charged with there). In other words, the George Costanza defence. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4548 "2023-08-17T15:57:47Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I’m assuming that there is a legally authorised official responsible for determining and declaring the result of the election and providing some sort of official certification to the winning delegates to the Electoral College. Happy to be corrected if I’m wrong, but if I’m not, then any document purporting to be such a certificate, but not issued by that official, is _ipso facto_ fraudulent and/or a forgery: surely, it would be an absolute offence, for anyone knowingly involved in a scheme to create such a document? Typically that’s the role of the Secretary of State in each state, though I only did a random sampling and didn’t check each of the 50 states. It might be different somewhere. But generally that’s who does it. For example, Trump’s infamous phone call in Georgia that got him in hot water was to Brent Raffensberger, who is Georgia’s Secretary of State. But yes, that is one of many reasons why the cases in Georgia and DC against Trump and his co-conspirators are so strong. That element is pretty straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4549 "2023-08-17T16:25:36Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > the George Costanza defence. It may work. Most of the jurors watched Seinfeld and liked George Costanza. It only takes one out of twelve to cause a hung jury. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/4550 "2023-08-17T17:40:13Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Look up _Mens Rea_ and get back to us. I am familiar with Mens Rea. This has nothing to do with that. He knowingly did the thing. He clearly had Mens Rea. That’s different from whether he actually violated the law in question. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s at best a woefully incomplete understanding of the indictment. [Here’s the actual indictment](https://www.scribd.com/document/665036274/Trump-Indictment-Georgia-081423#download&from_embed). In addition to “making false statements” (not “lying”, a crucial difference), Trump et al are charged with soliciting illegal acts, violating the integrity of voting machines, and more. You mean like section 3 “FALSE STATEMENTS AND WRITINGS O.C.G.A.§16-10-20”? Let’s look up O.C.G.A.§16-10-20 shall we? > A person who **knowingly** and willfully falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact; makes a false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or makes or uses any false writing or document, **knowing the same to contain** any false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry… Bolding mine. By the very text of the law in question, Trump needs to _know_ that the statement is false. You are right that there are other charges as well. But at least in the 11 counts citing O.C.G.A.§16-10-20 a good-faith statement that happens to be false would not be illegal. It does matter what he believed for those counts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020.md?page=226) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020.md?page=228)