# 7 Jan 2021 and beyond - the aftermath of the storming of the Capitol **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 8, 2021, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020 "2021-01-08T10:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1186 "2021-02-22T20:27:39Z")
At the risk of opening up a debate over semantics, I see the post-election meltdown of MAGAbots more as a form of extreme anger, which in some cases is raw hatred but in other cases is not motivated by hate but a desire to restore balance to what they view as a world in a state of disorder. They viewed their behavior not as a crime, but a patriotic, moral deed that had to be carried out. Night after night, as they went deeper down into their social media rabbit hole, they consumed nightmarish bedtime story after nightmarish bedtime story. They were fed lies about what was happening to their culture and to people like themselves. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1187 "2021-02-22T20:29:09Z")
Where’s my troll face? LOL This news made my day. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1188 "2021-02-23T01:24:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Hell, don’t MOST people recover from it? The great majority of us are in some sort in financial squeeze when we’re younger, with limited income, assets, and savvy. Pretty much everyone I know was in some pretty tight fiscal straits at some point, but I’m 49 now and almost everyone I’m familiar with is doing well now; it would be genuinely silly, were I or one of the people I know to engage in bizarre antisocial behaviour, to claim it’s because I had credit card debt in 1997. I’m not up for defending the rioters, but this is not true. MOST people around the country are not recovered from financial hardship. While these numbers are from after covid hit (Oct 2020 survey), these numbers were the same or worse even before that. The stimulus and unemployment benefits have seemed to have helped some for the moment. 63% of people are living paycheck to paycheck. 8 out of 10 people could not cover a $500 expense. According to the article, the financial squeeze is not about personal choices but about the rising cost of living along with stagnant wages. > **[63% of Americans have been living paycheck to paycheck since Covid hit](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/majority-of-americans-are-living-paycheck-to-paycheck-since-covid-hit.html)** > > Nearly two-thirds of Americans, 63%, say they've been living paycheck to paycheck since the Covid-19 pandemic spread in the U.S. earlier this year. > [@](#): > > Nearly two-thirds of Americans, 63%, say they’ve been living paycheck to paycheck since the Covid-19 pandemic hit the U.S. earlier this year. > . . . > However, it’s not completely due to Covid-19. About 44% of respondents say they were living beyond their means before the pandemic started and two-thirds say they regret not having more emergency savings. > > And for many Americans, the financial squeeze is less about personal choices and more about the [rising cost of living](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/04/47-percent-of-americans-say-cost-of-living-is-top-threat-to-future-security.html) — including food, housing, education and medical expenses. Stagnant wages also play a role. > > Real wages effectively remained stalled in 2019 despite the booming economy. > Nearly half of those surveyed, 47%, say their emergency savings has run out. If faced with a $500 emergency, roughly 8 out of 10 report they would not be able to cover the cost. > > Instead, many Americans are racking up debt to cover their expenses. About 42% report taking on more debt than they normally would and over a quarter of survey respondents say they’ve accumulated more than $10,000 in new debt since the pandemic started. > > A third of Americans have applied for (and received) at least one new credit card. I think all of this has political ramifications. Stagnant wages, the rising cost of living, the lack of a social safety net, and the lack of affordable healthcare are all things that the government could do something about, but they don’t. People who are suffering under these conditions have reason to be aggrieved. Of course, they don’t have reason to do illegal things like storm the Capitol, but they do have reasons to be frustrated. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1189 "2021-02-23T01:30:35Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > Stagnant wages, the rising cost of living, the lack of a social safety net, and the lack of affordable healthcare are all things that the government could do something about, but they don’t. People who are suffering under these conditions have reason to be aggrieved. Of course, they don’t have reason to do illegal things like storm the Capitol, but they do have reasons to be frustrated. But the people who stormed the Capitol were not storming to make America a better place, they wanted their own people to have a better place and the hell with the more than other half that wants to make it a better place. They were fighting for minority rule. For might makes right and to hell with democracy and letting voting decide how we run the place. Yes they are frustrated. But out of their frustration they decided to follow a tyrant that just makes promises without following through. Where the hell was his great health care plan after four years? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1190 "2021-02-23T01:45:59Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > The general rule is that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Why dont you find that in US Code, then because the Supreme Court disagrees. I mean, they did have the “reasonable man” term in there,sure. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1191 "2021-02-23T01:51:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why dont you find that in US Code, then because the Supreme Court disagrees. ? You seem to be saying that a legal principle doesn’t exist unless it takes the form of a specific law. IANAL but I don’t think that’s how it works. Nobody has claimed that there are never any exceptions made in law to the general legal principle that ignorance of the law doesn’t excuse illegal behavior. But just because there are occasional exceptions doesn’t mean that the principle isn’t valid in general. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1192 "2021-02-23T01:55:36Z")
Yes, it is a _legal principle_. So? Does that mean "I didnt know it was illegal " will be gaveled out of court, in the case os some obscure and little known law? **It isnt law.** But there are exceptions, SCOTUS exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1193 "2021-02-23T02:06:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, it is a _legal principle_ . So? Does that mean "I didnt know it was illegal " will be gaveled out of court, in the case os some obscure and little known law? Not necessarily, and nobody has claimed it necessarily will. So? It’s baffling why you’re being so combative about this issue, on which nobody is supporting the straw position that you’re attacking. Recall that when I brought up the existence of this legal principle back in post #1181, it was merely as an analogy to my proposed ethical principle that “ignorance of the (readily available) facts is no excuse for stupid behavior”. To forestall more of your indignant irrelevant contradictions, allow me to point out right away that that proposed ethical principle isn’t law either, nor am I proposing that it should be so considered. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1194 "2021-02-23T17:44:51Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > I think all of this has political ramifications. Stagnant wages, the rising cost of living, the lack of a social safety net, and the lack of affordable healthcare are all things that the government could do something about, but they don’t. People who are suffering under these conditions have reason to be aggrieved. Of course, they don’t have reason to do illegal things like storm the Capitol, but they do have reasons to be frustrated. I question what percentage of the people who flew to the capital with the intent of protesting(/rioting(/insurrection)) are currently unable to scrounge $500 in the case of an emergency. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1195 "2021-02-23T20:29:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Pretty much everyone I know was in some pretty tight fiscal straits at some point, but I’m 49 now and almost everyone I’m familiar with is doing well now To be sure that this is not survivor bias talking, was everyone that you were familiar with when you were young now doing well, or just those you are currently familiar with now that you are doing well? I know plenty of people in their 40’s and 50’s that are not doing well financially. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1196 "2021-02-23T21:04:52Z")
I can get a round trip flight to DC for under $150. For Jon Stewart’s Rally back in 2010, I drove out there with 3 other friends, cost us a tank of gas and some road snacks. But, according to: > **[A majority of the people arrested for Capitol riot had a history of financial...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/02/10/capitol-insurrectionists-jenna-ryan-financial-problems/)** > > A trail of bankruptcies, tax problems and bad debts raises questions for researchers trying to understand the motivations for the attack. > [@](#): > > The group’s bankruptcy rate — 18 percent — was nearly twice as high as that of the American public, The Post found. And quite a number are business owners, but struggling business owners, owing back taxes or liens to creditors. Interesting thing about owning a business is that you _can_ put yourself quite deeply in the hole, and yet still be able to get another extension of credit to dig yourself deeper. Someone could be $100,000 in debt, and yet still be able to fly themselves out to Washington to participate in an insurrection. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1197 "2021-02-23T21:19:18Z")
the referenced bankruptcy rate of the group could be why they love and revere a guy who declared bankruptcy multiple times, and is suspected of fraud. one of us, one of us. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1198 "2021-02-23T21:31:29Z")
Two New Yorkers arrested for the insurrection, one a former NYC police officer and one a Republican state leader. > **[Retired NYPD cop and Queens 'Republican Messiah' arrested in Capitol riot probe](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/new-york-republican-philip-grillo-charged-in-capitol-riot-case.html)** > > A former New York police officer and a Queens Republican Party official have been arrested on charges related to their alleged roles in the U.S. Capitol riot. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1199 "2021-02-23T23:09:02Z")
“Republican Messiah”? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1200 "2021-02-23T23:19:43Z")
A Republican Messiah sounds like who gets worshipped at a My Pillow church service… ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1201 "2021-02-24T00:04:40Z")
“He’s NOT the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!” ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1202 "2021-02-24T01:18:22Z")
We should all be embarrassed for NOT posting that. 😌 ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1203 "2021-02-24T14:07:05Z")
I’m not sure that you’re interpreting that decision correctly. Generally speaking, prosecutors have to establish criminal intent or intent to break the law. Whether you knew that certain behavior was deemed illegal, however, is not necessary to prove. What’s necessary to prove is that you intended to do the act, and the act was illegal according to a constitutionally valid rule or law. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1204 "2021-02-24T14:07:38Z")
> **[The Justice Department is facing a tougher climb trying to keep Capitol...](https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/23/politics/doj-capitol-proud-boys-oath-keepers/index.html)** > > The Justice Department is facing a tougher climb as it argues Capitol riot defendants should stay in jail -- with federal judges pressing prosecutors to explain possible inconsistencies in their arguments in some of the most high-profile cases... ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1205 "2021-02-24T14:14:09Z")
Because they have access to liquidity, which is something that, say, the single mom with three kids and three jobs probably doesn’t have. I suppose there are different kinds of poverty. I think it’s totally plausible that there is a percentage among the rioters who had some sort of searing, life-changing event that sent them over the edge and into QAnon land. I’m not saying that these people don’t have problems. My beef with these fuckers is, it’s as clear as day that they think they’re the only fucking people on the face of the earth with problems and they see themselves as the ‘victims.’ Even if they are bankrupt, I would be willing to wager that these rowdy white boys and girls have had opportunities and a leg up that many others have not. The most likely explanation for their misery is that they probably made decisions that caused it, but unlike blacks, Latinos, and white liberal art snowflakes they like to make fun of and wag their fingers at whenever they fall on hard times, they believe they’re entitled to privilege and immunity from failure, and they don’t want to do the hard work of looking in the fucking mirror. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020.md?page=61)