# 7 Jan 2021 and beyond - the aftermath of the storming of the Capitol **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 8, 2021, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020 "2021-01-08T10:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1206 "2021-02-24T14:20:23Z")
I personally think the American economy is a house of cards that’s going to collapse within the next 10 years unless we can radically rebalance the economic and political power at the top. That half or even more than half the country is in financial distress is not in any way surprising. It’s surprising to see that the stock market is still seeing near record highs, but then again, with valuations that are unbelievably disproportionate to actual earnings…well…as I said, a house of cards that will eventually collapse. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1207 "2021-02-24T14:31:54Z")
I don’t disagree, I’m just saying that, just because someone is in 6 figures of debt doesn’t mean that they can’t find a way to fly out to DC in order to participate in an insurrection. When you are self employed, and find yourself in a bad situation, you have no one to blame but yourself, which means that it _must_ be someone else’s fault. And yes, they _are_ privileged and entitled, and that makes their personal failure even more hard for them to accept. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1208 "2021-02-24T15:17:34Z")
Here’s the FBI page where you can check out the round-up, scroll through the photos and read the indictments. > **[Capitol Violence | Federal Bureau of Investigation](https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/capitol-violence)** > > The FBI is seeking to identify individuals involved in the violent activities that occurred at the U.S. Capitol and surrounding areas on January 6, 2021. View photos and related information here. If you have any information to provide, visit... ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1209 "2021-02-24T15:47:06Z")
It’s interesting: the rank-and-file participants in the insurrection have been brought to justice swiftly, by the book, and uncontroversially (no one, even on the Right, seems to be objecting to their arrest). Meanwhile, the Plotter- and Inciter-in-Chief couldn’t even be compelled to testify. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1210 "2021-02-24T16:04:13Z")
The ones who physically participate are the easiest to prosecute. They leave the evidence trail. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1211 "2021-02-24T16:30:50Z")
That’s true – but hardly the main reason why Trump skated. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1212 "2021-02-24T16:34:09Z")
In the political realm, I agree. In terms of criminal law, though, you need evidence of a crime. If they don’t prosecute Trump, I doubt it’s because nobody looked at his culpability. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1213 "2021-02-24T16:47:14Z")
In yesterday’s Senate hearing, Johnson (R-LA) spouted nonsense that the rioters were left-wing provocateurs. I wish somebody had asked him: of the 200 arrested, which ones were the provocateurs? And that: Trump isn’t here any more, you don’t have to keep kissing his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1214 "2021-02-24T17:30:28Z")
There’s other questions they aren’t asking. One, in particular, that I’m really curious about…and _ **no one** _ seems to have picked up on it. During the trial, they played radio communications from the officers and showed the written transcripts on the screen. They were using abbreviations in their requests, and we were looking up the abbreviations as we watched. There was a request for DSO’s, which is the abbreviation for Detention Service Officers. We took this to mean they were calling for the personnel and equipment (such as buses) needed in order to support mass arrests. This was an early call, the one where they declared the situation a riot. I don’t remember the last time, but it was before 2PM. We know that request was ignored. Why? We all know why, really. The hearing yesterday was mostly bullshit, but I don’t think any of it is a mystery. The entire federal government was scared of pissing Trump off by putting any constraints on _ **his** _ people and _ **his** _ rally. That worked out about as well as could be expected, and the CYA -is extraordinary. After yesterday, I see the high profile resignations as a total collective CYA move, based on how many questions _ **couldn’t** _ be answered because the officials quit immediately after the event and weren’t privy to follow-up or analysis. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1215 "2021-02-24T18:32:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t disagree, I’m just saying that, just because someone is in 6 figures of debt doesn’t mean that they can’t find a way to fly out to DC in order to participate in an insurrection. Look at DJT himself. He’s no doubt up to his fat ass in debt and yet that never slows him down when it comes to spending money. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1216 "2021-02-24T19:06:23Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > We know that request was ignored. Why? > > We all know why, really. The hearing yesterday was mostly bullshit, but I don’t think any of it is a mystery. The entire federal government was scared of pissing Trump off by putting any constraints on _ **his** _ people and _ **his** _ rally. Definitely. Next week’s hearings are with Pentagon officials – hopefully, someone will be asked: when you got the request for National Guard troops, why did you sit on it for 2 hours? Who told you to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1217 "2021-02-24T19:18:29Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Who told you to do that? I hope they repeat this question over and over until they get a satisfactory answer. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1218 "2021-02-24T21:27:31Z")
Trump made people like Johnson realize that they can literally make up their own reality. People can tell a lie to mislead people about a specific thing; the goal of this kind of lying, though, is different. The mass production of lies has a different goal: to make people doubt that truth can ever be fully known, to make people doubt official sources, to make people fundamentally question everything, even things they ought to know. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1219 "2021-02-24T21:37:24Z")
Yes, and in the tax case, prosecutors specifically had to prove, for a criminal offense, that the defendant “wilfully” broke the law. The Court explained that “wilfully” means the defendant had to subjectively know it was illegal. Very very few criminal offenses require proof of wilful violation of a law. They went on to say that the defendant could be guilty if his non-compliance was based on his argument that the income tax was unconstitutional, because he was aware of what the law was. They said, however, that he could not be found guilty on a particular instance where there was enough evidence that the jury could have found that he genuinely believed that he was not subject to a particular tax. (On retrial, with the jury properly instructed, I believe he was still convicted – that is, the jury did not believe that he honestly didn’t realize he was subject to that tax.) I won’t further hijack, but yes, the opinions are being misinterpreted. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1220 "2021-02-24T21:52:05Z")
Tax rules are a necessary exception to the general rule. Someone will likely commit a tax offense of some kind in their lifetime. If every failure to pay the proper amount were a criminal matter, we’d want to strip government of the power to raise taxes altogether. For that reason, tax evasion or avoidance is typically a civil matter until it is established that such underpayment or non-payment is an attempt to commit to defraud the government. Thus we criminal deliberate attempts to short-change the government, and even then, the government, knowing how unpopular taxes, reserves prosecution for the least sympathetic of characters. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1221 "2021-02-24T22:01:12Z")
Shit, McConnell voted to acquit, then had a presser citicizing Trump. It’s just Republicans, man. That’s how they roll. It’s all bullshit, all the time, all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1222 "2021-02-24T22:03:56Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > In yesterday’s Senate hearing, Johnson (R-LA) spouted nonsense that the rioters were left-wing provocateurs. I heard the Johnson from Wisconsin say the same thing. That guy, man, talk about bullshit through and through. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1223 "2021-02-24T22:48:10Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > tax evasion or avoidance is typically a civil matter Just want to point out, tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is perfectly legal. Your tax deferred 401k is a form of tax avoidance, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1224 "2021-02-24T23:03:38Z")
Chewbaca thinks he should be released from prison now because he’s all special and stuff. [I think this might be paywalled, but I’ve posted the fun parts.](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2021/02/24/jake-angeli-qanon-shaman-wont-take-covid-vaccine-asks-release/6801024002/) "The Phoenix man facing federal charges for taking part in the storming of the U.S. Capitol while wearing a fur headdress with horns has asked to be released from custody, in part because his shaman beliefs preclude him from taking a COVID-19 vaccine. Jake Angeli, in his filing requesting his release, said that he was still seeking medical treatment for digestive issues, despite being granted his request for organic food in the Alexandria, Virginia, jail where he’s housed. That raises the possibility that Angeli has a medical condition that could worsen his outcome should he be infected by the novel coronavirus, his attorney wrote in the filing. The motion for release makes arguments about Angeli’s conduct in the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, framing his actions as nonviolent protest goaded on by then-President Donald Trump. The motion, filed Tuesday, also says that Angeli, as part of his self-reflection while in custody, has renounced any interest in politics." To recap, he’s said he’s sorry. He doesn’t think he should be in prison because he might get sick. He’s no longer interested in politics and he’s a while male. Why in the world is he still in prison? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1225 "2021-02-24T23:05:40Z")
I knew someone was going to make me pay for not differentiating between the two. I thought about editing but said screw it and let it go – thanks a lot, @k9bfriender. Some _bfriender_ you are! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020.md?page=62)