# 7 Jan 2021 and beyond - the aftermath of the storming of the Capitol **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 8, 2021, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020 "2021-01-08T10:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 71
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1406 "2021-03-23T17:09:01Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > Returning to the defamation case, how does it help to admit that she was lying about that all along? Sounds like she’s using the argument “all political statements are exaggerations; that;s what politics is; you can’t reasonably expect anyone to have believed me; therefore it wasn’t a statement of fact, only opinion, which is not actionable.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1407 "2021-03-23T17:33:45Z")
… but she demanded the courts take action on these very arguments, so ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1408 "2021-03-23T17:36:55Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Millions of Americans believed her claims. Of course, that alone disqualifies them from being considered “reasonable.” I don’t know if it’s accurate, but I heard the reasonable person standard being described as, “not necessarily what most people would do but what a reasonable person would do.” ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1409 "2021-03-23T17:41:58Z")
It worked for Tucker Carlson, but as a talking head he had a slightly stronger case. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1410 "2021-03-23T18:05:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > She has the little problem that she was filing court cases based on that theory. Was she? Did she make these same allegations in court filings? Or did she do more of what Guiliani did, and make outrageous statements to the press, but make much tamer allegations in what she actually filed? I’m not familiar with the specifics of what she filed. And, yeah, even if they were in the filings, getting disciplined by the bar is probably preferable to bring bankrupted by a huge judgement for damages. It could be a kind of clever tactic. Because, really, they were ridiculous claims. A bunch of people did believe them, and even act on them, but those were hardly reasonable people. The problem is that she was specifically appealing to those people. It doesn’t seem fair for her to get to use that defense when her target audience was specifically unreasonable people. I think the tactic will fail for many of the statements, but she might get one or two taken out of the case. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1411 "2021-03-23T18:15:37Z")
The truth is that she knowingly made these false statements to people she believed would believe them, and thus it was clearly slander. In the abstract it doesn’t matter whether they believed her - it’s her intent that matters. (In the concrete their belief is of course important for determining damages.) Given the above, her only defense is to make the incredible claim that she was _not_ literally trying to convince the suckers that there was election fraud - and since her statements to that effect are on record, the only defense she has available to her was to claim she was joking. So of course that’s the claim she’s making. That it was a big prolonged unfunny joke the whole time. I would hope the courts would tell her to quit lying about her motivations, unfortunately I gather that motivations are rather difficult to prove in court. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1412 "2021-03-23T18:16:00Z")
Putting aside her “reasonable person” claim for a second… Lawyers often say things in the media that they would not say in court. How many times have we seen a lawyer with and obviously guilty client say “my client is innocent of all charges, and looks forward to their day in court where we will prove that they have been framed by the police for this awful crime” when they know damn well that the police did no such framing, and are only saying so to sway public sentiment? How is what she did all that much different? When she got into court the wild claims she made seemed to be greatly moderated. Don’t get me wrong. I find the obviously false statements lawyers routinely make to the media offensive and should bear some sort of consequence. But when there has been none up to this point why should she be held to a different standard? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1413 "2021-03-23T18:17:10Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Don’t get me wrong. I find the obviously false statements lawyers routinely make to the media offensive and should bear some sort of consequence. But when there has been none up to this point why should she be held to a different standard? What percentage of such statements are openly slanderous to a third party? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1414 "2021-03-23T18:20:28Z")
Isn’t saying “my client has been framed by the police” slanderous? And while this tactic may not be all that common, it’s certainly not uncommon. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1415 "2021-03-23T18:25:45Z")
I suspect that the police are usually satisfied when their innocence is proven by the accused being sentenced. And even if they’re not, I don’t really recall hearing about the police suing other people too often, for some reason. Perhaps they don’t have the spare funds? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1416 "2021-03-23T18:33:52Z")
How common is this type of defense against slander/libel? We know that conservatives and wackos (re: Alex Jones) have used it but do most defendants? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1417 "2021-03-23T19:07:29Z")
I don’t know if it’s common, but a famous example is _Hustler Magazine v. Falwell_ Basically, Hustler magazine printed a humorous article parodying a then current advertising campaign, and implying that Jerry Falwell had sex with his mother. Finding: this was an obvious satire that no reasonable person would have believed to be factual, case dismissed. > **[Hustler Magazine v. Falwell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hustler_Magazine_v._Falwell)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell, 485 U.S. 46 (1988), was a landmark decision of the United States Supreme Court ruling that the First and Fourteenth Amendments prohibit public figures from recovering damages for the tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress (IIED), if the emotional distress was caused by a caricature, parody, or satire of the public figure that a reasonable person would not have interpreted as factual. > In an 8–0 deci... I suppose the question is really, how often do people even try to sue when nobody believes the claim. I suspect not often. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1418 "2021-03-23T19:25:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And even if they’re not, I don’t really recall hearing about the police suing other people too often, for some reason. Perhaps they don’t have the spare funds? The police don’t lose sales contracts because some lawyer lies about their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1419 "2021-03-23T19:36:34Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Was she? Did she make these same allegations in court filings? There were so many, but my recollection is that during the “Kraken” phase, she filed an affidavit from the “intel expert” which was widely debunked. But I admit I have not read all of the pleadings; relying on the media accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1420 "2021-03-23T19:39:23Z")
I’m not sure, but I’m guessing most defendants for slander or libel were not wasting the courts time with things ‘no reasonable person could believe’. I guess that my initial response was what should happen to her as a lawyer and not as a defendant in a particular case. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1421 "2021-03-23T20:55:00Z")
Even if it’s a common defense Powell’s case is different for sure. The cases that I’m aware of involve a media company, not a lawyer. Here’s hoping she loses her case. I believe that she’s minorly responsible for the DC riot so I wouldn’t mind seeing some jail time (which isn’t possible in a civil trial, right?) ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1422 "2021-03-23T21:30:25Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Was she? Did she make these same allegations in court filings? Or did she do more of what Guiliani did, and make outrageous statements to the press, but make much tamer allegations in what she actually filed? I’m not familiar with the specifics of what she filed. Yeah, she made pretty much the same allegations in court filings. Consider, for example: > [@](#): > > 1. The fraud begins with the election software and hardware from Dominion Voting Systems Corporation (“Dominion”) used by the Michigan Board of State Canvassers. The Dominion systems derive from the software designed by Smartmatic Corporation, which became Sequoia in the United States. > > 2. Smartmatic and Dominion were founded by foreign oligarchs and dictators to ensure computerized ballot-stuffing and vote manipulation to whatever level was needed to make certain Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez never lost another election … > > 7). A core requirement of the Smartmatic software design ultimately adopted by Dominion for the Michigan’s elections was the software’s ability to hide its manipulation of votes from any audit … > > 1. Plaintiff’s expert witness, Russell James Ramsland, Jr. (Exh. 101, “Ramsland Affidavit”), has concluded that Dominion alone is responsible for the injection, or fabrication, of 289,866 illegal votes in Michigan, that must be disregarded. That’s a few highlights from the first five pages of the [complaint (PDF!)](https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mied.350905/gov.uscourts.mied.350905.1.0_2.pdf) she filed (and signed her name to) in [King v. Whitmer](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18693929/king-v-whitmer/), an attempt to overturn the election results in Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1423 "2021-03-23T21:33:49Z")
Holy cow. Yeah, she should be in quite a lot of trouble. And I don’t see how you could possibly say that no reasonable person would believe your statements if you’re a lawyer and you included the same statements in a pleading that you signed. By definition, you’re saying you have reason to believe those things are true. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1424 "2021-03-23T22:05:32Z")
Retired NYPD officer “facing charges of: knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; disorderly or disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.” > **[Tambourine-Playing Ex-NYPD Cop Latest to Face Charges for Alleged Role in...](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/tambourine-playing-ex-nypd-cop-latest-to-face-charges-for-alleged-role-in-capitol-siege/2959479/)** > > A retired NYPD cop is the latest to face criminal charges in connection to the Jan. 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020/1425 "2021-03-23T23:41:12Z")
Remember when Donald Trump sued Bill Maher for claiming that he (Trump) was fathered by an orangutan? > **[That Time Trump Sued Bill Maher After Joke About His Mom Having Sex with...](https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/that-time-trump-sued-bill-maher-after-he-made-joke-about-his-mom-having-sex-with-orangutan/)** > > Needless to say Trump eventually withdrew the lawsuit with a promise to re-file an "amended complaint." There is no indication that Trump ever fulfilled that promise either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020.md?page=70) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-jan-2021-and-beyond-the-aftermath-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/930020.md?page=72)