# 7 reasons to not make war on Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2002, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827 "2002-12-06T01:22:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/21 "2002-12-06T07:46:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Soup\_du\_jour \* > \*\*1. People (both Iraqi and American) will die. > > -And if we do nothing, Mr Hussein will stay in power. Dude gassed the Kurds during the Iran/Iraq war (which the West strongly condemned, mind you.) That’s genocide. \*\* Liar. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/22 "2002-12-06T08:15:39Z")
Oh, sorry. Hussein gassed _Iranian_ civilians, not _Iraqi_ civilians during the Iran/Iraq war, which the Security Council condemned. It was _after_this that Hussein initiated genocide against the Kurds. You know, this guy has done so many bad things, it’s hard to keep them straight. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/23 "2002-12-06T08:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\* > Look, the only way that nuclear weapons can be of any use to a state is if people know that it has them. It wouldn’t do Saddam any good if he had nuclear weapons and nobody knew about them. \*\* That would be true if he wanted them for a deterrent. If he actually wants to kill a lot of folks quick, then he kinda wants that nobody knows about them till it’s too late. As was already said, if Sadam gets a nuke, it’s most likely target will be Isreal. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/24 "2002-12-06T08:52:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Soup\_du\_jour \* > \*\*Oh, sorry. Hussein gassed _Iranian_ civilians, not _Iraqi_ civilians during the Iran/Iraq war, which the Security Council condemned. It was _after_this that Hussein initiated genocide against the Kurds. > > You know, this guy has done so many bad things, it’s hard to keep them straight. \*\* You are a liar for saying that the west condemned the gassings. Liar. ---
**Author:** ![RobertTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RobertTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobertTB)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/25 "2002-12-06T09:14:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*LOL > > In a civilized society it would work quite differently. For one thing, the onus is never on those who oppose war to justify why we _shouldn’t_ go to war. Rather, those who propose war have a very high burden of proof to justify the mass destruction and loss of life that war entails. In a civilized society, those who propose a war would bring their case to the public, and there would be a debate. Those who proposed war would have to answer detailed questions about their motives for going to war, the cost of the war, and what the intended result of the war will be. > > None of this has happened. > > Instead, what has happened is that the Bushites formed a plan to invade Iraq and let it sit. Then, after 911, when the country was whipped into hysteria, they preyed on peoples’ fears to justify the war. They lie to the people about the situation. They attempt to scare the populace into supporting a war that it wouldn’t support otherwise. Essentially, they are following Hermann Goering’s prescription for how to start a war. When Goering was in the dock at Nuremburg he explained how it works: > > “Why of course the people don’t want war … But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship …Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.” > > When the media is controlled by the pro-war crowd it is very difficult to counter all of the mis-information, lies and distortions that are repeated ad nauseum, but still there is significant resistance to this unjust war. > > Again, if you are not willing to die for the cause, you have no right to consign others to die for it. It is not just the soldiers who will die, although that is bad enough. Many of the soldiers, on both sides, are misled and lied to, or are compelled to join the military to make a decent life for themselves. It is disgusting to claim that these lives are expendable because they volunteered for it. > > But, in modern war, it is the civilians who suffer. This will be especially true in the war on Iraq, as it will involve heavy bombardment of civilian areas. We can expect mass civilian deaths, displacements, starvations, rampant disease and shattered lives. Furthermore, the Bushites haven’t given the slightest indication that the government they will install will be any better than the government of Saddam. > > Unless you are signing up to be on the first wave into Baghdad, you are a hypocrite and a coward. \*\* Now I see my mistake. For this topic, my context was ‘the real world’, whereas yours is some fantasy construct. In the real world, in a democracy, the civilian leadership of a state determines if and when said state goes to war. In your fantasy construct…I don’t even want to guess. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/26 "2002-12-06T09:28:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RobertTB \* > \*\*Now I see my mistake. For this topic, my context was ‘the real world’, whereas yours is some fantasy construct. In the real world, in a democracy, the civilian leadership of a state determines if and when said state goes to war. In your fantasy construct…I don’t even want to guess. \*\* In a totalitarian state the rulers simply announce when the state will go to war, and everybody marches in lock-step to their leaders. Perhaps you have some different definition of democracy, but I always thought of democracy as a system whereby the people have the final decision over such things as when the country goes to war. ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/27 "2002-12-06T10:27:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Liar. \*\* Chumpsky, that is not really a good debating tactic. It would have been more effective to provide a cite proving your point. Attacking someone who disagrees with you (instead of attacking his facts) is not good form. It is also a good way to get the moderators to jump on you. Doingthings like that too often may get you banned. Just a word to the wise. ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/28 "2002-12-06T10:31:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*In a totalitarian state the rulers simply announce when the state will go to war, and everybody marches in lock-step to their leaders. > > Perhaps you have some different definition of democracy, but I always thought of democracy as a system whereby the people have the final decision over such things as when the country goes to war. \*\* You know, I find this funny. Here you are comparing the US to a totalitarian country, and forgetting that in a totalitarian country the boys in the dark clothes would right now be knocking down your door to take you away forever for daring to speak against the will of the dictator. Rant and rave if you must, but please remember that you live in a democratic country where you have the freedom to dissent. ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/29 "2002-12-06T10:52:59Z")
Oh, and just for the record, although I post from (and live in) Germany, I am an American. I agree with what President Bush is doing, and I do think he is much more competent than a lot of people would like to believe. I’m not terribly concerned with the prospect of war. Not that I like the idea of war, I just don’t think that war is President Bush’s goal. Before you start carrying on about me not being on the front lines, I served four years in the US Air Force at the time of the Gulf War. My specialty field was not called in to service down there - mainly becuase the US kicked ass too quickly and thoroughly for us to be needed in great numbers. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/30 "2002-12-06T12:03:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ñañi \* > \*\* > > 1. People (both Iraqi and American) will die. > > 2. Iraq does not have nuclear weapons, and poses no military threat to the US or it’s neighbors > > 3. Saddam Hussein has no connection to Al Qaeda or 9/11 > > 4. A war would be disastrous for the area, and likely destabalize the entire Middle East. > > 5. A war would only increase anti-American feelings and increase the likelihood of terrorism. > > 6. North Korea is far more dangerous than Iraq… but it has no oil. > > 7. A US invasion and the subsequent regime change would be illegal under international law. > > So, what do you all think? \*\* 1\> Not Just Amercans and Iraqis. Brits, French, Dutch, Italians etc. THe reason that so many countries are prepared to put their troop’s lives on the line ie “pay the blood price” (Tony Blair) is that they think its the right thing to do. Are they all wrong? 2\> THis is US isolationism, a very unpleasant characteristic. Saddam has proved that he is a serious threat to his neighbours. Ask Iran or Kuwait, not to mention the Kurds. Whilst the US is out of his range Greece, Turkey, Italy etc will soon be within range. 3\> So what? Neither has the Zimbabwean government and I think they’re a bunch of evil bastards too. 4\> Maybe. Only time will tell. But the status quo could hardly be called “stable”. 5\> Sorry, but they already hate you. THey can’t really hate you more. 6\> Dangerous to whom? Also they have no oil and as such no strategic significance. US involvement in the Korean peninsula is an accident of history that should have ended with the Berlin Wall. Leave them to the Chinese. 7\> I’m not qualified to argue. But international law tends to be made by those who wield big sticks. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/31 "2002-12-06T14:24:47Z")
Welcome to the boards, nani. The search engine is your friend. In [this thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=144065&highlight=reasons+AND+stop) most of the reasons you set forth were extensively hashed out. The only two new ones you set forth are ##6-7. Number 6 isn’t a reason not to go to war with Iraq, unless your position is that we should attack North Korea first. Number 7 is a supposition on your part. An invasion and regime change will be legal under international law if the UN Security Council approves such. We shall see if the UN Security Council approves same. Sua ---
**Author:** ![o42cDeadBeef](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3be4f8/32.png) [@o42cDeadBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/o42cDeadBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/32 "2002-12-06T14:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Liar. \*\* Dear Chump: I know how you appreciate the truth so please read the following. "In the series of Anfal operations, the Iraqis used chemical weapons and heavy bombardments to decimate civilian populations, due in part to the unavailability of troops who were at the Iranian front. The strategy also included the destruction of villages, mass executions, and deportations of civilians including women and children. In a particularly cruel practice, those who sought medical attention in the urban centers for the treatment of exposure to chemical agents were rounded up and disappeared. In all an estimated 182,000 Kurds lost their lives and/or disappeared in this organized reign of terror. In addition, hundreds of thousands of Kurdish civilians were displaced from their homes as an estimated 4,000 villages were destroyed and a process of Arabization was enforced. The most notorious and widely publicized incident occurred in Kurdish town of Halabja, where on March 16, 1988 an estimated 5,000 men, women, and children lost their lives. Over 10,000 were wounded and to this day suffer the effects caused by exposure to chemical agents" Now check out the ‘rest of the story.’ [www.imisite.org/iraq.php](http://www.imisite.org/iraq.php) Now, are you still willing to call someone a liar? ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/33 "2002-12-06T17:12:53Z")
> [@](#): > > You are a liar for saying that the west condemned the gassings. > > Liar. Yesterday on an NPR radio show, I heard from a former congressman that the US condemned the use of biological weapons during the Iran/Iraq war. I decided to take his word for it. After you so eloquently called me on it, I decided to look it up. I then modify my response to fit the truth, and you proceed to call me a liar again? What gives? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/34 "2002-12-06T17:45:21Z")
> [@](#): > > In a totalitarian state the rulers simply announce when the state will go to war, and everybody marches in lock-step to their leaders. > > Perhaps you have some different definition of democracy, but I always thought of democracy as a system whereby the people have the final decision over such things as when the country goes to war. And someone should make the obligatory point that the USA is **not** a democracy. It’s a democratic republic, meaning the people elect representatives to the legislature who are then, in principle, supposed to act in majority interest. This has been done. The congress of the United States overwhelmingly a resolution giving the president power to act militarily against Iraq. So, Chumpsky, just what portion of the democratic process, as outlined by the constitution, do you think has been violated? I understand the outcome of the vote by our duly elected federal legislature doesn’t meet your wishes (I’m not sure it’s in agreement with mine either), but tough shit. That’s the nature of a representative democracy. Or even a direct democracy for that matter. I’ll bet you’d have been a fun guy to have around here back in December 2000. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/35 "2002-12-06T17:51:27Z")
Watch out, Soup\_du\_jour. If you get him really riled up, he may upgrade your status to “Pants on Fire”. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/36 "2002-12-06T17:59:36Z")
\*\*6. North Korea is far more dangerous than Iraq… but it has no oil. \*\* This is just a reason to attack North Korea too, not a reason ‘to not make war on Iraq’. **Chumpsky** _Again, if you are not willing to die for the cause, you have no right to consign others to die for it._ People in this country choose to serve in the military, knowing full well they may have to die for a cause while government officials and civilians stay home. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/37 "2002-12-06T18:00:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > \*\*And someone should make the obligatory point that the USA is \*\* > > I’ll bet you’d have been a fun guy to have around here back in December 2000. \*\* Eh? Why would that be (is it an American thing?) ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/38 "2002-12-06T19:39:17Z")
**UncleBeer** was probably referring to the American presidential election, and **Chumpsky’s** possible reaction to it. Given his statements on the American political system in this thread, **UB** is assuming that his posts regarding that issue would be “fun” - that is, similarily hysterical. ---
**Author:** ![Jonmarzie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jonmarzie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonmarzie)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/39 "2002-12-06T19:44:32Z")
**Chumpsky** , even if the claim that **soup\_du\_jour** made was false, his argument stands. You, by eloquently calling\*\* soup\*\* a “liar,” only attacked an aside to his argument. It was in parenthesis, for crying out loud. This is the epitome of the straw man. Back to the argument made about Saddam’s slaughter of the Turks. One of the reasons Hitler has gone down in history as an evil lunatic and not just a power-hungry politician is that he killed quite a few of his own people simply because of their ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation. To put it plainly, Hussein has done the exact same thing to the Turks. We cannot let this slide. If he has done it once, he will do it again. The slaughter of the Turks may well be reason enough to remove him from power, even if he weren’t so aggresive and blatant. (I also hear he is a poor novelist to boot.) Attack arguments. ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827/40 "2002-12-06T20:43:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonmarzie \* > \*\ ***Chumpsky** , even if the claim that **soup\_du\_jour** made was false, his argument stands. Hey, that’s some trick - reversing history - that you’ve got there. As I recall, Saddam was using chems back in the early '80’s as well, and the U.S. kept supporting him. > [@](#): > > To put it plainly, Hussein has done the exact same thing to the Turks. We cannot let this slide. If he has done it once, he will do it again. The U.S. lets a lot of things slide, simply because if we righted every wrong we’d eventually either bankrupt the nation or get our asses handed to us from being stretched thin. Why is this one so important right now? It wasn’t important enough 14 years ago in 1988. Only Kuwait in 1991 was the point of no return. Six-figure Iraq dead for stepping out of bounds, but Saddam kept control. The line can’t be terrorism, as there’s no link between Saddam and al-Qaida. It can’t be nonexistent nukes - Israel would beat us to the gate taking them out if Iraq got close, and Korea is more dangerous. The reasons that are left are political - pretty much the same reasons the U.S. turned a blind eye to Saddam during the '80’s. Russia was the designated baddie then. Now, I admit I have a weakness for the ‘finish the job’ agrument, but just by looking at Afghanistan, I know the job isn’t going to be finished - but it will be spun as victory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-reasons-to-not-make-war-on-iraq/140827.md?page=3)