# 7 year old rampage at Zoo **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2008, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290 "2008-10-03T09:00:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/61 "2008-10-03T17:24:56Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > There game farms stocked with farm-raised birds that are only released into the wild when a paying hunter approaches. How is that not grown-up sticking knives into a hamster cage? There are… well, I could go on, but then this would take on the tenor of a screed against hunting. It’s not. I don’t think hunters should get counseling for their need to kill, but I think this kid does. But I’m hard pressed to articulate the difference. Well, for one thing, I don’t know any hunters who’ve paid for the experience you describe. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I believe it to represent a minority of the people who go hunting. Most people I know who are into hunting are going after wild deer, or turkey. Not farmed and caged animals. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/62 "2008-10-03T17:48:25Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > link, please? [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=484459), specifically the hijack starting at post 177. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/63 "2008-10-03T17:52:36Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > That would make you… wrong. Killing small animals in childhood is one indicator of a future serial killer. > > To bad the kid couldn’t make it over the fence into the croc compound. Try harder next time, kid! Indeed. People are restrained from acting out their worst impulses by 1)conscience and 2)fear of punishment. The former is clearly defective in this creature’s case. Ergo, some consequences sufficient to crank the latter up to 11 are required. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/64 "2008-10-03T18:09:57Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Well, for one thing, I don’t know any hunters who’ve paid for the experience you describe. Well, Cheney, for one. It’s actually a huge business around here (Hudson Valley, NY) and I have a few friends connected with it. I imagine in the more hunter-friendly states it’s even larger. Not the dominant hunting activity by any stretch, but not obscure. Perhaps its cost keeps it at some lower level. Again, this isn’t “hunters are bad, m’kay” at all. But I think it’s difficult to distinguish between the two without taking a “know it when I see it” or “no true Scotsman” route. I don’t think it’s _impossible_ (else I wouldn’t have bothered asking the question), I just don’t think it’s easy and look forward to learning about the distinction. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/65 "2008-10-03T18:24:26Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I don’t think hunters should get counseling for their need to kill, but I think this kid does. But I’m hard pressed to articulate the difference. The difference is that hunting is mostly culturally acceptable, while breaking into the zoo and killing the animals is absolutely not, and seven years old is old enough to know it. The fundamental morality of killing animals is not actually at issue here. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/66 "2008-10-03T18:39:01Z")
I think we need to retire the idea of other cultures not having the same appreciation of animal rights as being completely irrelevant to this discussion - the kid was Australian, he killed the reptiles in an Australian zoo, and Australian culture is not Chinese culture. What they do in China has no bearing on this story. I don’t know how Australians view animal rights; would any Australians care to comment on how Australian society views what this boy did? (And now the word “Australian” has lost all meaning to me…😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Jelly\_Roll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Jelly\_Roll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jelly_Roll)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/67 "2008-10-03T18:44:22Z")
Hunting is a sport and even though the goal is to kill an animal, there is a chance the animal will get away. Another goal is to kill with as few shots as possible for a quick death. The reptiles this kid set his sights on never had a chance. To bludgeon an animal seem very personal. If you’re going to kill me, please shoot me through the head instead of beating me with a rock. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/68 "2008-10-03T18:55:34Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > The difference is that hunting is mostly culturally acceptable, while breaking into the zoo and killing the animals is absolutely not, and seven years old is old enough to know it. The fundamental morality of killing animals is not actually at issue here. Well, I might agree and I have said so but it seems to me most people in this thread take the opposite view and want to make it precisely about the fundamental morality of killing animals. Except, as I have said, if the parents had done the same thing at home with animals they owned they would probably not have done anything illegal. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/69 "2008-10-03T19:07:49Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Well, I might agree and I have said so but it seems to me most people in this thread take the opposite view and want to make it precisely about the fundamental morality of killing animals. Except, as I have said, if the parents had done the same thing at home with animals they owned they would probably not have done anything illegal. I don’t know about Australia, but if you beat your pet to death with a stone in the UK it is indeed illegal, though you would most likely face a fine and a ban on keeping further pets rather than a custodial sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/70 "2008-10-03T19:11:05Z")
It sounds to me like there are two elements to it. First, and what probably brought up the connection in the first place, is the incident was raw, naked, unadulterated and pure desire to kill. It was stripped at all social pretense of “civilized” society, and (to use a term I probably don’t know enough about to use correctly) seemed a matter of the id gone wild. While there are all sorts of spiritual, cultural, and philosophical layers to modern hunting, I think one would be hard pressed to say that in the vast majority of it the urge to kill is not one element of the joy. This isn’t necessarily barbarism — I think there are powerful arguments that should be embraced rather than downplayed. But exposing that to the light of a thousand quick-to-condemn views may be a bit daunting. Which kind of leads to the second element: > [@Jelly Roll](#): > > To bludgeon an animal seem very personal. Yes, spookily so. It’s one thing to acknowledge that the kill itself is at least one aspect of hunting. It’s quite another to completely revel in it, and take such unabashed glee. There are a lot of primitive (for lack of a better word) joys, but overindulgence and total emersion in something can come across as significantly aberrant. I think your suggestion that personalization and glee in suffering is where the line is crossed is quite apt. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/71 "2008-10-03T19:15:32Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Well, I might agree and I have said so but it seems to me most people in this thread take the opposite view and want to make it precisely about the fundamental morality of killing animals. It seems to me that you are actually the one who brought in the fundamental morality issue by introducing cross-cultural comparisons. I don’t believe that the criminal justice system is an appropriate means to handle the misbehavior of seven-year-olds, but I disagree with your original comment that > [@](#): > > I do not think a seven year old can be held responsible nor do I think this means he is seriously warped. Seven year olds have no clue about the effects of their actions and that is why we don’t hold them responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/72 "2008-10-03T19:17:20Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Thanks. I thought I was alone in thinking that focus should be on the parents here. Who the hell has a 7yo that jumps into a zoo and does as he wants for 30 minutes before his parents even notice? That kid could have died a dozen times in those 30 minutes. Where were they? At home, on the street? How do you not miss your child for half an hour? I hate to be one of those dull parents that says “As a parent…”, but…as a step-parent of a kid about that age, this can’t be stressed enough. And even if the kid hadn’t been running amok killing animals, I’d be very, very worried as a parent of a kid whose first thought on realizing he’s unsupervised is “I’m going to break into someone else’s property by climbing a fence.” Even if you think you know what is on the other side of the fence, it shows an unhealthy _lack_ of fear. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/73 "2008-10-03T19:46:46Z")
> [@Fly\_Pusher](#): > > Too good of a pun to not be commented on by any other poster. I at least, appreciated the effort. seconded ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/74 "2008-10-03T19:55:21Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Well, I might agree and I have said so but it seems to me most people in this thread take the opposite view and want to make it precisely about the fundamental morality of killing animals. Except, as I have said, if the parents had done the same thing at home with animals they owned they would probably not have done anything illegal. Tell that to [Michael Vick.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Vick) Perhaps the acceptance of animal torture in China is correlated to the idea that some businessmen had that poisoning the milk of children is okay, so long as it saves money? There is also a huge difference between even throwing rocks at animals outside and torturing animals in a zoo, a place that even seven year olds know is meant to protect them. I’d also investigate the family. If there is no history of abuse that would explain this, perhaps the kid is just a sociopath. I don’t know. But leaving a kid of that age by himself for half an hour in a small town is not necessarily a big deal. It’s not like he was wandering around in the middle of Manhattan. Some places are still safe for kids. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/75 "2008-10-03T20:15:34Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > As I said, feeding live lizards to a croc is not illegal at all and you could do it all day long so long as the animals are yours. So let us quit all this stupidity that it is inherently wrong. I’m wondering your stance on this, if someone feeds an animal to another with the purpose to cause and witness that animal to suffer. (I’m not talking about this kid in the zoo story, more details need to be known about his motives. I’m just wondering overall) > [@sailor](#): > > I walked past a bored young woman at a sales stand who was torturing a puppy just for her own entertainment and I was sickened. AHA! Thank you. You were sickened! So why are you trying to tell people not to be sickened by this type of behavior? Torturing animals IS sickening! Again, how does the fact that you see people torturing animals for entertainment in China or anywhere else make it less wrong to torture animals? Do you torture animals? It really sounds like you’re trying to rationalize it here, and with all your posts here. > [@sailor](#): > > There have been threads here about bullfighting and some have said you have to be sick to enjoy such a thing. And yet I believe you can enjoy watching a bullfight and be a normal person and not a psycopath. If you enjoying watching bullfighting _because you enjoy seeing a bull suffer_ in my mind you are a psychopath. You are missing that distinction . It has been brought up over and over here, but you keep equating things like hunting, and feeding with torturing. If you do any of these things _because_ you enjoy seeing pain and suffering then you are mentally ill or a psychopath. It doesn’t matter where you are from, and I don’t believe you that this motivation is common in any country. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/76 "2008-10-03T20:18:03Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Seven year olds are learning and they will be cruel to animals or even their peers just to see what it is like. And if they feel the power they will do it again. It takes education to stem that instinct. This is true, and the education was clearly lacking in this kid’s life. The principle can apply at earlier ages too. At 5, I was being babysat by a family after school and for no particular reason threw their cat down a flight of stairs. It landed on its feet and scampered off, but there were some sharp words of shock from the mother, which made me cry out in anger and fear. _But that was not the lesson._ And I suspect that often that lesson is given harshly and left to sting. The lesson came soon after. I was settled down and told, gently but meaningfully, why we must love pets and always treat them well. I never forgot the lesson, or the gentle reasons for it, and it became part of who I am. I have since always loved animals - especially cats. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/77 "2008-10-03T20:53:18Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > This is true, and the education was clearly lacking in this kid’s life. > > The principle can apply at earlier ages too. At 5, I was being babysat by a family after school and for no particular reason threw their cat down a flight of stairs. It landed on its feet and scampered off, but there were some sharp words of shock from the mother, which made me cry out in anger and fear. _But that was not the lesson._ And I suspect that often that lesson is given harshly and left to sting. > > The lesson came soon after. I was settled down and told, gently but meaningfully, why we must love pets and always treat them well. I never forgot the lesson, or the gentle reasons for it, and it became part of who I am. I have since always loved animals - especially cats. That seems like adequate correction to me. I do not see that you or your family needed therapy or an investigation into what was wrong with you. It seems to me pretty normal that a kid will do such things just to see what it’s like and he just needs to be shown nice people do not do these things. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/78 "2008-10-03T21:10:36Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > That seems like adequate correction to me. I do not see that you or your family needed therapy or an investigation into what was wrong with you. It seems to me pretty normal that a kid will do such things just to see what it’s like and he just needs to be shown nice people do not do these things. you’re being purposefully obtuse. There is no other explanation. You are equating one kid coming across a cat in a hpuse where he was invited and throwing it, to a kid breaking into private property and bludgeoning 3 seperate animals to death and feeding many more to a crocodile. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/79 "2008-10-03T21:43:58Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > This is true, and the education was clearly lacking in this kid’s life. > > The principle can apply at earlier ages too. At 5, I was being babysat by a family after school and for no particular reason threw their cat down a flight of stairs. It landed on its feet and scampered off, but there were some sharp words of shock from the mother, which made me cry out in anger and fear. _But that was not the lesson._ And I suspect that often that lesson is given harshly and left to sting. > > The lesson came soon after. I was settled down and told, gently but meaningfully, why we must love pets and always treat them well. I never forgot the lesson, or the gentle reasons for it, and it became part of who I am. I have since always loved animals - especially cats. I don’t have a specific recollection of being taught to treat pets nicely, but I vividly remember a time when I was about six or seven: I had just come home from school one day and was just chatting with my mom and happened to mention one classmate–a girl who was a little immature, timid, and socially inept; the other kids weren’t very nice to her. I said, “She’s one person the whole class looks down on.” Mom said, casually but in an authoritative voice, “Well, it’s not right to look down on people.” The sentence hit me like an ocean wave. I _had_ been looking down on the girl, albeit privately–savoring my superiority like a Bronze Age hero. I’ve never really been the same since that moment. > [@sailor](#): > > That seems like adequate correction to me. I do not see that you or your family needed therapy or an investigation into what was wrong with you. It seems to me pretty normal that a kid will do such things just to see what it’s like and he just needs to be shown nice people do not do these things. There’s a huge difference in degree between throwing a cat down the stairs and what the kid in Australia did. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290/80 "2008-10-03T22:42:42Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > I don’t know how Australians view animal rights; would any Australians care to comment on how Australian society views what this boy did? People shoot feral animals like rabbits and foxes, and the killing of cane toads is universally seen as a good thing. I think there might be laws against it now, but people still kill venomous snakes that could be a danger to people. But something like killing wallabies is seen as a monstrous act, and I think that killing any zoo animal or pet would be seen the same way. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the authorities should be investigated the kid’s family. Seven year olds are not going to naturally going to have that kind of anger built up inside them - they’re reacting to something that was done to them. One indicator of future killers is animal torture; but another indicator is a history of being abused and/or molested as a child. That sort of abuse is a widespread problem in remote Aboriginal communities, so you could be on to something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/7-year-old-rampage-at-zoo/466290.md?page=5)