# 700 Species going extinct. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178 "2003-09-12T12:12:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chicago\_Faucet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chicago_faucet/32/13910_2.png) [@Chicago\_Faucet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicago_Faucet)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/1 "2003-09-12T12:12:58Z")
Here’s the link, > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. I don’t know what to think. On one hand, if this actually happened, then it would be a tragedy. On the other hand, this article is so full of hyperbole, that I find it hard to believe. They mention several times that these habitats are “unprotected”. Well, who was protecting these habitats before humans came around, and up to this point? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/2 "2003-09-12T12:27:51Z")
> [@](#): > > On the other hand, this article is so full of hyperbole, that I find it hard to believe. On the contrary - these are the vertebrate species extinctions we _know_ about. There are likely very many more we don’t, not to mention the literally thousands of insect/plant/plankton extinctions occuring every decade. > [@](#): > > Well, who was protecting these habitats before humans came around, and up to this point? The point is that without human interference the ecosystem remains in _equilibrium_. The trouble with human activity is that it changes the characteristics of massive tracts of land very quickly. It seems a little harsh to suggest that a tree-dwelling creature might “adapt to its environment” when you’ve just chopped down all the trees in a hundred mile radius within six months, depleted the soil so much that grasslands become desert within a generation, or overfished to the point where the entire food chain is thrown into chaos. Every year numerous new drugs and treatments based on natural products \*eg.\*deep in the Amazon become available. Species conservation should occur \*even from a \*_selfish perspective_. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/3 "2003-09-12T12:28:12Z")
A lot more than 700 species are at risk. These are just some of the better-understood examples. No one was protecting these habitats before humans came around. No one was threatening them, either. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/4 "2003-09-12T12:28:26Z")
Before humans came around, there was no need to protect the habitats. We are the enemy. On the other hand, species have been dying out since time began. It’s part of nature. We are hastening it, no doubt, but if nothing died out, wouldn’t it be a bit crowded on this here planet? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/5 "2003-09-12T12:31:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*Before humans came around, there was no need to protect the habitats. We are the enemy. > \*\* That’s true. After all, before humans entered the picture mass extinctions on earth were unheard of. Marc ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/6 "2003-09-12T12:49:42Z")
“Hey, lots of people died before I ran that bus full of orphans off the side of the bridge. Why should _I_ be considered responsible?” ---
**Author:** ![Chicago\_Faucet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chicago_faucet/32/13910_2.png) [@Chicago\_Faucet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicago_Faucet)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/7 "2003-09-12T12:53:14Z")
I remember from Environment Science 101, that there have been 12 mass extinctions on this planet. The equilibrium that is spoken of includes the routine extinctions of species. Call it a “Market Correction”, but I jest. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/8 "2003-09-12T12:56:51Z")
> [@](#): > > The equilibrium that is spoken of includes the routine extinctions of species. Yes, the environment changes naturally over long periods of time. However, human activity changes _enormous_ areas _very quickly_. For humans to be directly responsible for only the 13th mass extinction in one billion years would possibly be our most morally reprehensible legacy imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/9 "2003-09-12T13:30:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\*That’s true. After all, before humans entered the picture mass extinctions on earth were unheard of. > > Marc \*\* Almost Marc. Apparently there was a mega extinction 250 million years ago over an 80,000 year period in which 95% of all life on earth died. It’s called the Permean Extinction. This was way, WAY before dinosaurs and whales and dolphins. There is speculation that a cow like mammal called the “listosaurus” survived, from which all mammals (including us) eventually evolved. My point here is that it’s taken at least 65 million years, and probably 250 million years for the flora and fauna as we know it today to evolve. And THAT is where the sadness comes in. I’m told that for every extra billion humans on the planet, as a rule of thumb, you can safely kiss goodbye at least 10,000 species of animal life - that is, birds, marine life, insects, mammals, and reptiles. They all suffer sadly. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/10 "2003-09-12T17:13:05Z")
For those who seem to think this is all no big deal, [here](http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v405/n6783/full/405234a0_fs.html) is a review article from _Nature_ about this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/11 "2003-09-12T17:57:03Z")
For the average person, it’s hard for many to see the effects. IMO the difficulty in the ability to feel directly impacted by the changing environment is a prime reason for the current day apathy. As I understand it the loss of animal and plant life is occurring primarily in Africa and South America. Countries in these continents have an interest in using their natural resources for economic purposes in order to obtain the standard of living western democracies currently enjoy. What is a practical, reasonable way to convince the populace of those countries to _NOT_ try to better their economy? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/12 "2003-09-12T17:57:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chicago Faucet \* > \*\*They mention several times that these habitats are “unprotected”. Well, who was protecting these habitats before humans came around, and up to this point? \*\* Protected _from humans_. Human activity - deforestation, habitat alteration, hunting, etc. - is overwhelmingly the most important threat to the survival of the species in question. The vast majority of them would not be threatened by extinctions if humans weren’t destroying their habitats. “Protected” in this case means that the species is found within a national park, wildlife refuge, etc. “Unprotected” means that it is only known to occur in areas without any formal legal protection. I just completed a technical analysis of exactly this kind for the birds of Panama. I found that although many threatened species were found in protected areas, others were not. I also found that the loss of a few thousand more acres of forest in one area of Panama will cause probably a dozen species of birds from the country. These species have already lost 99.9 percent of their range in Panama through deforestation, and none of their range in Panama is protected. (Although these species would continue to survive in Costa Rica, which is the only other country where most of them occur, they are threatened by deforestation there as well.) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chicago Faucet \* > \*\* > On the other hand, this article is so full of hyperbole, that I find it hard to believe. \*\* As others have said, it is not hyperbole, it is probably a gross understatement. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/13 "2003-09-12T18:03:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\*That’s true. After all, before humans entered the picture mass extinctions on earth were unheard of. > > Marc \*\* Previous mass extinctions were due to asteroid impacts, massive volcanic eruptions, etc. You happen to notice any of that going on at the moment? Since you’re obviously being sarcastic, what’s your point? Because mass extinctions have occurred before due to natural causes, we shouldn’t be concerned because humans are causing one now? Or are you trying to imply that the current mass extinction is coincidental, and humans have nothing to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/14 "2003-09-12T22:11:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chicago Faucet \* > \*\*I remember from Environment Science 101, that there have been 12 mass extinctions on this planet. > > The equilibrium that is spoken of includes the routine extinctions of species. Call it a “Market Correction”, but I jest. \*\* Yes, “equilibrium” includes the “routine” extinction of species (the “background extinction rate”) but we are way out of equilibrium now: the extinction rate vastly exceeds the evolutionary rate for the creation rate of new species - which should balance each other if things are actually in equilibrium. From [here](http://www.amnh.org/science/biodiversity/extinction/Intro/OngoingProcess.html): > [@](#): > > Background extinctions are at the opposite end of the spectrum from mass extinctions. It is generally assumed that “natural” extinctions go on all the time, but at very low or “background” rates. Characteristic of background extinctions is that they occur in a random or uncorrelated anner. One high estimate for the recent background extinction rate for birds is one species extinction per 400 years. If only this natural rate of loss affected the number of bird species, no more than a couple of extinctions should have occurred in the past 800 years. Scientists estimate that the actual loss during this time period lies somewhere between 200 and 2,000! The fact that today’s extinction rate vastly exceeds any estimation of the background extinction rate impels many scientists to conclude that we are now on the cusp of the so-called Sixth Extinction. That ain’t no market correction; it’s a market crash that makes the one in 1929 look like a tiny blip. ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/15 "2003-09-13T03:18:12Z")
The thing is; does this mass extinction affect humans in any measurable way? If it doesn’t, why should be care about it. ---
**Author:** ![Phage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a4c791/32.png) [@Phage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phage)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/16 "2003-09-13T04:01:20Z")
One thing to think about is the assumption that extinctions caused by humans are necessarily a bad thing. Nature tends toward equilibrium, true, but it is not always the _same_ equilibrium. An ecosystem that is stable can have a superior predator move into the area, and it will be changed as certain prey die out, and maybe even some predators will die from lack of food. Nevertheless, stability will return to the environment. There are basically two ways of thinking about humankind; that we are advanced animals and part of the world ecosystem, or that we are a superior and separate type of being and merely living among animals. For the first school of thought, the argument that we are intruding and ruining an ecosystem is ludicrous. We are part of the world ecosystem; it is evolution in action if the inferior animals cannot compete. We are intelligent enough to decide if we want to keep them around for a specific purpose, but characterizing their extinction as immoral is hypocritical. If you think of humans are a separate, higher form of being then you probably don’t have any problem with the extinction of species. If you do, ask yourself why. Animals die all the time, for various different reasons. Most of them have to do with their inability to cope with the environment, be it a fast animal with big teeth or an SUV with large tires. Why should we care if it is a certain type of animal that is dying rather than a different type? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/17 "2003-09-13T04:04:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim\_Beaker \* > \*\*What is a practical, reasonable way to convince the populace of those countries to _NOT_ try to better their economy? \*\* Maybe they could charge the rest of us an air tax? They could make money that way instead of building their own economy. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/18 "2003-09-13T04:15:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > \*\*Previous mass extinctions were due to asteroid impacts, massive volcanic eruptions, etc. You happen to notice any of that going on at the moment? \*\* What does the cause matter? The point is that life managed to hang on each and every time. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Since you’re obviously being sarcastic, what’s your point? Because mass extinctions have occurred before due to natural causes, we shouldn’t be concerned because humans are causing one now? Or are you trying to imply that the current mass extinction is coincidental, and humans have nothing to do with it? \*\* My point is that the environment doesn’t really need to be protected from humans in the way **Kalhoun** seems to think. I’m not really all that concerned about mass extinction as I don’t see it as a threat to human life. I can get worked up over air and water pollution as well as overfishing but I imagine there are a lot of species that could go extinct without any effect on the quality of our lives. Marc ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/19 "2003-09-13T04:36:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DreadCthulhu \* > The thing is; does this mass extinction affect humans in any measurable way? If it doesn’t, why should be care about it. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MGibson_ > I’m not really all that concerned about mass extinction as I don’t see it as a threat to human life. I can get worked up over air and water pollution as well as overfishing but I imagine there are a lot of species that could go extinct without any effect on the quality of our lives. To be honest, it kind of amazes me that it comes down to this for you guys. I.e., that it doesn’t matter unless it affects us humans very directly. But, be that as it may, the Nature article I linked to talks a fair bit about the ways in which the altered biodiversity (with the extinctions being one part of this) does affect us in the section entitled “Society Consequences of Altered Biodiversity”: > [@](#): > > …Changes in biodiversity that alter ecosystem functioning have economic impacts through the provision of ecosystem goods and services to society ( Fig. 1 and Box 2). Changes in diversity can directly reduce sources of food, fuel, structural materials, medicinals or genetic resources. These changes can also alter the abundance of other species that control ecosystem processes, leading to further changes in community composition and vulnerability to invasion. Introduction of exotic species or changes in community composition can affect ecosystem goods or services either by directly reducing abundances of useful species (by predation or competition), or by altering controls on critical ecosystem processes (Fig. 4). It goes on to give examples and talk in more detail about this. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178/20 "2003-09-13T07:15:47Z")
I can only concur with **SentientMeat**. Out of sheer _self-preservation_ we are obliged to make some reasonable effort to acommodate all other species on the planet. An odd little yam from the aforementioned Amazonian rainforest just happened to yield the prototype pseudo-hormones for oral contraceptives. Consider the implications of that one single medical discovery. A huge percentage of all new bio-pharmaceuticals come from the Amazon. How much more of it shall we slash and burn? Yet, please consider a very mundane discovery. A biologist working with frogs would routinely perform open surgery on his subjects, stitch them back up and toss them into their muddy tanks. He began to notice that very few of the frogs ever became infected. After investigating, it was found that frogs (in general) have a fabulous complex of anti-fungal and anti-bacterial secretions in their skin. These secretions are currently being investigated as a powerful new antibiotic drug. Which species do we let go extinct? The one that holds a cure for AIDS, cancer, multiple sclerosis … (need I continue)? At the very least we must begin a multinational effort to catalog and house biological material from around the world. We are rapidly extinguishing a vast legacy of nature’s adaptation across the aeons. It is literally as if we are heating our house by burning the furniture. I am a devout capitalist, but the profits from discovering a single one of these vital biopharmaceuticals could easily outweigh the entire value of a world timber crop. The alleviation of human suffering goes light years beyond the money. It is precisely these reasons that cause me to advocate preservation of all old growth forests in the United States and the sustainable harvesting of large trees worldwide. Domestic replanting of trees has created a monoculture of Douglas fir that is engineered to grow so fast that it doesn’t even have a straight grain (no lumber, suitable only for plywood). Again, by reforesting with a single species, what miraculous possibilities have already been lost? It’s not as if we have anywhere near even 50% of the earth’s species cataloged in the first place. This is a priceless heritage that we are squandering. Once again, our biosphere is uniquely suited to provide assimilable chemistries for the human body. What survives today, is the byproduct of untold millennia of winnowing and specialization. The survival mechanisms (as seen in the frogs) have been fine-tuned far beyond what we could hope to duplicate through organic synthesis and subsequent (long term) testing. We have had this magnificent medicine chest thrust into our hands and we are wiping our posteriors with the bandages contained therein. This must cease immediately. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/700-species-going-extinct/201178.md?page=2)