# 787 first flight. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 15, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387 "2009-12-15T18:28:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/61 "2009-12-18T21:52:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’d sell your soul for at T-38. By the way, I’ve seen this example leaving BFI several times. Gooood and loud. > **[Aviation Photo Search | Airliners.net](https://www.airliners.net/search)** ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/62 "2009-12-18T23:04:03Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Here’s the first option I found](http://www.jetwarbird.com/T-33.html). > > 1,000 total hours in type, 500 hours PIC. $2,400/hr. When you run THOSE numbers…the 150k or so for the aircraft itself seems virtually free… hundreds and hundreds of hours at thousands of dollars an hour adds up. For a guy like me, you might as well be talking about womp rats. I guess I could buy one and stick in on the driveway. ---
**Author:** ![Improvisor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/50afbb/32.png) [@Improvisor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Improvisor)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/63 "2009-12-18T23:10:28Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > By the way, I’ve seen this example leaving BFI several times. Gooood and loud. > > [Aviation Photo Search | Airliners.net](http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N586PC&distinct_entry=true) From the linked page it says: > [@](#): > > This aircraft is jointly owned by Paul Allen and Charles Simonyi and resides in the Vulcan hangar at BFI. Ahhh. How nice it must be to be filthy, filthy rich. Maybe Allen needs that when he needs to get down fast to Portland to catch a Trailblazers game. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/64 "2009-12-19T01:34:33Z")
I’ve got at least 5000 engineering hours into this plane so I was thrilled to see it fly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/65 "2009-12-19T02:22:36Z")
> [@dgrdfd](#): > > I’ve got at least 5000 engineering hours into this plane so I was thrilled to see it fly. 🙂 So, Basically you drove the price of this airplane up a good fraction of a million dollars ? Gee thanks. I’ll think of you the first time I fly on one 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/66 "2009-12-19T02:45:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > When you run THOSE numbers…the 150k or so for the aircraft itself seems virtually free… hundreds and hundreds of hours at thousands of dollars an hour adds up. > > For a guy like me, you might as well be talking about womp rats. > > I guess I could buy one and stick in on the driveway. I’ve got to go review the FAR/AIM, but I’m 99.9% sure that\*\* Johnny L.A.\*\*'s interpretation is off a bit here. You don’t need 1,000 hours in type to get the rating, it’s that you cannot get such a rating until you have 1,000 hours period. So you could get your ticket, build hours in various aircraft, then once you’ve hit that 1K mark, you can go on down and get instruction in type. Once the instructor thinks you’ve “got it”, you go on your check ride and, pow, you’re type rated. Not that getting to a thousand hours is cheap, but you can do it for a hell of a lot less than $2,400/hr. You might even find a way to get paid for building the time. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/67 "2009-12-19T02:51:58Z")
> [@Improvisor](#): > > From the linked page it says: > Ahhh. How nice it must be to be filthy, filthy rich. Maybe Allen needs that when he needs to get down fast to Portland to catch a Trailblazers game. I think it would be cooler if he took his B-17, but the insurance may prohibit commuting in it. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/68 "2009-12-19T02:55:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, > > Basically you drove the price of this airplane up a good fraction of a million dollars ? Gee thanks. I’ll think of you the first time I fly on one 🙂 Wow, never really looked at it that way. More than 0.5M actually. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/69 "2009-12-19T04:00:21Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > I’ve got to go review the FAR/AIM, but I’m 99.9% sure that\*\* Johnny L.A.\*\*'s interpretation is off a bit here. You don’t need 1,000 hours in type to get the rating, it’s that you cannot get such a rating until you have 1,000 hours period. > > So you could get your ticket, build hours in various aircraft, then once you’ve hit that 1K mark, you can go on down and get instruction in type. Once the instructor thinks you’ve “got it”, you go on your check ride and, pow, you’re type rated. > > Not that getting to a thousand hours is cheap, but you can do it for a hell of a lot less than $2,400/hr. You might even find a way to get paid for building the time. You know, I thought of that. But I was posting from work, and I’ve got this obsessive need to crunch data and didn’t come back to mention it. I honestly don’t know whether 1,000 hours in type is required, or if you are correct about 1,000 hours TT. If you find out, please post here. Thanks! This is entirely anecdotal: I was talking to someone at an airport one day who told me that the biggest obstacle was meeting the hours-in-type requirements to buy insurance. ISTR one person saying that the pilot in question had to fly his L-39 with an instructor in the back seat until he had the number of hours required by the insurance company. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/70 "2009-12-19T05:03:10Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > This is entirely anecdotal: I was talking to someone at an airport one day who told me that the biggest obstacle was meeting the hours-in-type requirements to buy insurance. ISTR one person saying that the pilot in question had to fly his L-39 with an instructor in the back seat until he had the number of hours required by the insurance company. A friend of mine who bought a Mig 15 didn’t insure it. The insurance premiums were going to be 20% of the value per year, as long as he didn’t break it in five years he would be ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/71 "2009-12-19T05:10:38Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:70, topic:521387”] A friend of mine who bought a Mig 15 didn’t insure it. The insurance premiums were going to be 20% of the value per year, as long as he didn’t break it in five years he would be ahead. [/QUOTE] I think most U.S. states require insurance. I was very close to buying a Hughes 269A back around 2001. It was $39,000 with good component times remaining. (I check prices from time to time, and prices seem to have tripled since then.) I phoned up a broker to find out about insurance. Since I’d have to rent the helicopter out, the annual insurance premium would have been $13,000. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/72 "2009-12-19T05:13:28Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > I’ve got to go review the FAR/AIM… I am not a pilot, but I am trying _so hard_ to learn about the industry/flight safety and maybe it’s the few beers I’ve had tonight (probably) but damn if I can’t figure out what AIM stands for in this context. Aeronautical Information Management? Aircraft Information Management/manual? Google isn’t helping me. How would it determine how many hours/hours on type someone would need for a type rating? An explanation would be nice, but a link would suffice so I can try and learn this new term/abbreviation! Thanks! (I once told my boss that I wanted to learn “everything” about flight safety and the aircraft at that company…he laughed, but I don’t think he realized that I really will give it my best try!) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/73 "2009-12-19T05:21:54Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > I am not a pilot, but I am trying _so hard_ to learn about the industry/flight safety and maybe it’s the few beers I’ve had tonight (probably) but damn if I can’t figure out what AIM stands for in this context. Airman’s Information Manual. Although I think it may be called Aeronautical Information Manual now. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/74 "2009-12-19T06:33:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > You know, I thought of that. But I was posting from work, and I’ve got this obsessive need to crunch data and didn’t come back to mention it. I honestly don’t know whether 1,000 hours in type is required, or if you are correct about 1,000 hours TT. If you find out, please post here. Thanks! > > This is entirely anecdotal: I was talking to someone at an airport one day who told me that the biggest obstacle was meeting the hours-in-type requirements to buy insurance. ISTR one person saying that the pilot in question had to fly his L-39 with an instructor in the back seat until he had the number of hours required by the insurance company. I just read through several sections of the FAR (hell of a Friday night!) and find nothing about a minimum number of hours required before receiving a type rating, except in some particular cases where the rating is given based on simulator time alone. I also know from some pilot friends that the insurance requirements are far more stringent than the FAA requirements, especially with regard to minimum hours and recurrent training. So I think the 1000 hour minimum is most likely an insurance related restriction imposed on the school. There’s just no way someone’s spending 2.5 million and half a year of thelr life to get a type rating in a $200K jet trainer. Hell, a captain at a regional airline might have less than a thousand hours total. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/75 "2009-12-19T06:40:22Z")
So now I’ve watched the video, and the plane looks like pretty much every other Boeing, so what’s so special about this plane? It didn’t look all that big, so I’m guessing there is some major increase in operating efficiency? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/76 "2009-12-19T06:58:43Z")
It’s a replacement for the B767 and is supposed to be 20% more efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/77 "2009-12-19T08:17:18Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:70, topic:521387”] A friend of mine who bought a Mig 15 didn’t insure it. The insurance premiums were going to be 20% of the value per year, as long as he didn’t break it in five years he would be ahead. [/QUOTE] I recall a well-off farmer in NZ’s South Island bought a MiG of some description (a MiG-21, IIRC) when The Wall came down and the Russians were flogging them off to anyone with the readies, and his plan was to basically fly it around as his personal aeroplane. He was able to buy it and get it imported, but then the CAA said to him “And who- bearing mind mind they must be type-rated in NZ for a MiG- is going to teach you to fly this thing?” The answer at the time was, unfortunately, “No-one”, so he ended up taking it on tours whilst he got the money together to get someone out from Russia to officially teach him to fly the plane. Not that I can see a great deal of use for a supersonic jet fighter in NZ, but then again it’s exactly the sort of thing I’d buy if I had the money and the spare time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/78 "2009-12-19T09:29:11Z")
My mate’s Mig 15 was flown by an Air NZ pilot who had flown A4s in the RNZAF, I’m not sure if he’d flown a Mig 15 before or not. I think sometimes the CAA are happy with equivalent experience. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/79 "2009-12-19T09:43:53Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:78, topic:521387”] My mate’s Mig 15 was flown by an Air NZ pilot who had flown A4s in the RNZAF, I’m not sure if he’d flown a Mig 15 before or not. I think sometimes the CAA are happy with equivalent experience. [/QUOTE] Oh, I don’t disagree with you. I just think their point was that if Fred Bloggs thought he could wander down to his local aero club, rack up a few hours in a Cessna, then buy a MiG-21 via Mail-order from Russia, strap himself in, and then light the afterburners, he had another thing coming. And let’s be fair here, how many people in NZ (besides ex-RNZAF pilots- and NZ only had two squadrons of Skyhawks anyway- and some guys who’d worked for Air New Zealand or Ansett) would have much practical experience with jet aircraft? Not many, I’d wager. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387/80 "2009-12-19T13:02:07Z")
The flex on those wings looks positively alarming. I just hope that the passengers get told that it’s designed to do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/787-first-flight/521387.md?page=5)