# 8/7 Justice League: For the Man Who Has Everything **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 7, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760 "2004-08-07T12:36:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/21 "2004-08-10T13:34:39Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > Yeah, Marvel falls way behind DC in terms of having strong female characters. DC has Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, Batgirl, and currently Robin. Marvel’s most successful female-centered title, indeed the only female character with a solo title I can think of, is _Spider-Girl_, which is non-continuity. Just FYI, currently you have _She Hulk, Mystique, Emma Frost, Amazing Fantasy_ and _Rogue_ as ongoing Marvel comics with female leads. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/22 "2004-08-10T18:18:25Z")
Yeah, I’d though of some of those just after posting; I even have a subscription to _She-Hulk_. Marvel also has _Elektra_, which is it’s longest running female solo title after _Spider-Girl_, and _Mary Jane_, which I think may already have been canceled. I also left _Catwoman_ off of my list of DC titles. That said, I think my main point still stands. Marvel just doesn’t seem to support its female centered titles the same way DC does. Most of the titles they have out now will be gone in a year or two. I’d predict that two years from now, Marvel will have perhaps Spider-Girl and Elektra, while I wouldn’t be surprised to see all of the DC titles I mentioned still around. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/23 "2004-08-10T18:57:41Z")
Someone mind giving a (spoilerish) synopsis of the comic in question? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/24 "2004-08-10T19:03:25Z")
The JL is fighting a bad guy (hey whaddya want, I came into the cartoon a little late…) who gets this flower-looking organism affixed to Supes’ chest. This organism has the affect of putting his mind in a place where Krypton did not blow up, he is married and has a son. As the other JL’ers fight the awesomely-powered bad guy, Superman stands there in the fray with a wistful smile on his face and this thing on his chest. Finally, Batman is able to reach in his mind - can’t remember exactly how - and plant a nagging doubt that his perfect reality is somehow wrong and not real. Superman has to walk away and play a role in destroying his most fervent desire. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/25 "2004-08-10T19:07:07Z")
Yeah, tell! ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/26 "2004-08-10T22:32:33Z")
I didn’t get to see the whole episode yet ☹ but I’m looking forward to seeing it all the way through. What I caught was a great interpretation of an excellent story. (Even now when I re-read it I get an incredible sense of Superman’s anger and power when he attacks Mongul) I liked the fact that in this version Both of his worlds were combined. He was a Kryptonian farmer, rather than an archeaologist as in the original. His perfect world includes his life as Clark Kent, growing up on the farm. Nice. His wife in the dream looked like Lois. Did he call her that at any point? ---
**Author:** ![Pigs\_in\_Space](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@Pigs\_in\_Space](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pigs_in_Space)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/27 "2004-08-11T02:48:22Z")
> [@photopat](#): > > His wife in the dream looked like Lois. Did he call her that at any point? I don’t think so, but they used the same voice, Dana Delany, so it was on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/28 "2004-08-11T03:36:34Z")
> [@photopat](#): > > I liked the fact that in this version Both of his worlds were combined. He was a Kryptonian farmer, rather than an archeaologist as in the original. His perfect world includes his life as Clark Kent, growing up on the farm. Nice. Well, that’s only natural, considering (spoilers so I don’t give away your spoiler) [spoiler]the comic story took place pre-Crisis, when the general creative direction for Superman was that he considered himself Kal-El (or Superman), a Kryptonian on Earth, and Clark Kent was nothing more than a convenient disguise that could be discarded when it gets inconvenient - as in another Alan Moore story, “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?”. I never liked this, personally. Then again, considering that even his own parents have been known to call their own son “Superboy” (or “Superbaby,” for Pete’s sake), this isn’t really surprising. Anyway, because this is a post-Crisis story, where the creative direction is that he considers himself first and foremost Clark Kent, son of Jonathan and Martha Kent, the new version of the fantasy makes a lot more sense.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/29 "2004-08-11T05:32:08Z")
[spoiler]Actually, **Leaper** , in most of the Pre-Crisis Superman stories, Superman thought of himself as Superman, excepting those few that involved Kandor. Clark Kent was an appendage to be protected from discovery and Kal-El, basically an afterthought. Alan Moore must have bloody hated the Pre-Crisis Clark Kent, because in every Superman story he wrote that secret ID was altogether absent, marginalized, discarded or outright destroyed. In fact, I’d say the creative direction you mentioned was prevelant ONLY in the three Alan Moore Pre-Crisis stories (Five, if you count Superman’s brief cameo in _Swamp Thing_ alongside the satellite-era JLA and in the unwritten _Twilight_), which is what made them so subtly unique. All his stories depicted Superman as an alien who referred to himself as “Kal-El”, in deference to his one, true Kryptonian heritage. One of my favorite Moore stories, “The Jungle Line”, a team up with a dangerously delirious Superman and Swamp Thing, clearly shows this trichotomy in a dream sequence… firstly, the Clark Kent guise (a false persona) 2) his Superman guise (ultimately, an equally false persona) and Kal-El (which is what he called himself even in the midst of delirium, and what his friends Bruce and Diana called him in their private moments.) Even his post-Clark Kent alternative human identities of “Cal Ellis” and “Jordan Elliot” – were homages to his and his father’s Kryptonian identities. A very nice touch. It was John Byrne in his 1986 revamp who made the focus on Clark Kent for the very first time – but this view of the character’s perception of himself is only made possible by the fact that Byrne did not kill off Superman’s adopted Earth parents, Jonathan and Martha Kent, which is one of the best enduring aspects of the revamp. Without the Kents, alive and guiding, Clark exists in a paper-thin void that folds against the weight of Kal-El’s pathos. The Kents re-inforce his humanity.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/30 "2004-08-11T06:18:27Z")
**Askia** : Hmm. Well, I wasn’t sure when I wrote my last post… I can see where you’re coming from, though. As a bit of a hijack, I’ve read lots of folks who deplore the Kents being alive, because the sense of powerlessness and pathos that Superman had over not being able to save his parents is gone. I’ve never bought that as important, myself, especially when it has the consequence that you point out. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/31 "2004-08-11T06:39:07Z")
Askia gives a good interpretation of how Superman views himself differently post-crisis. In addition to the Kents still being alive, I think the later onset of his powers has a lot to do with it. Pre-Crisis, Superman had his powers from the moment he landed on earth. In some tellings, the only reason he survives the crash of his rocket is because of his invulnerability. This Superman had from the moment of his arrival been different to such a degree that he had to hide this difference. Super was his normal way of being, Clark was layered on top of that as a disguise. Post-Crisis, Clark had no powers early on, and only very slowly developed them in his late teens. Thus, Clark was able to develop as any other small town farm boy would, developing normal human relationships with friends and peers. In essense, his civilian identity, Clark Kent, was fully developed as his core identity long before he became super. He has a connection to normal humans, because he, for all intents and purposes, used to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/32 "2004-08-11T08:28:15Z")
[spoiler] **Leaper.** You were right, I just added some background. I, too, thought that the Kents dying with Superman unable to stave off their deaths was an important part of the original Superman mythos – especially after reading the coma-inducing _Smallville_ mini Byrne wrote. The single story that made me change my mind was Loeb and Sale’s _Superman For All Seasons_ mini, especially the first part, written from Pa Kent’s limited-omniscient perspective about his increasingly inhuman adopted son. Wow. If you guys haven’t read it, find it and read it. A second story, Alan Davis’ Elseworlds mini, _The Nail_, also reinforced this opinion for other reasons, since it dealt with the _other_ adopted children of the Kents. It will take a very talented writer to make the story of the Kents death work, especially after they’ve been around now almost 20 years, and to write the grief, loneliness and helplessness of Superman seem palpable. **Number Six.** You make a very good point about Superman developing his powers in his teens, Post-Crisis. Also important was his powers being significantly reduced in scope and intensity: he no longer has the insane power-levels of the classic 50s Pre-Crisis **Fenris** is so fond of, and in a sense, this reinforces his limitations and mortality. You know, normally I avoid topics surrounding movies and TV shows I haven’t seen yet, but I’m glad we’ve have this discussion now, before finally I see this particular adaptation. It’ll give me something to focus on besides the changes and allow me to foucs on the actual story more. Thanks, guys.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/33 "2004-08-11T21:08:16Z")
Another comment on this hijack: I’m really glad that the Kents are alive post-Crisis, if only because it means that the stupid, stupid, _stupid_ story behind their deaths pre-Crisis is no longer canon. Thank Gawd. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/34 "2004-08-11T21:40:04Z")
What was their pre-C death? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/35 "2004-08-11T22:10:08Z")
Okay, the basic gist of the story as I remember it is that Superboy, spurred by the diary of a pirate he reads at a museum, takes his parents back in time to dig up the treasure. When they die of a mysterious illness, he assumes that it’s his fault, especially since he wasn’t able to save them. It turns out that the diary was the agent of the disease after all, and that it was exposure to that, not the treasure, that killed them (as it killed the pirate centuries before). But yes, for most of the story, it’s assumed that they died due to their superpowered son taking them back in time to recover pirate booty. Stupid stupid STUPID. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/36 "2004-08-12T21:27:39Z")
I fileshared the first two episodes of JLU and saw them both back to back just a few minutes ago. I thought the first episode was pretty good! But then my expectations for it were pretty nuetral, and it surely managed to entertain. I played spot the cameo and was pleased that I could identify damn near every superhero in the Watchtower. It was fun, watching four Leaguers take on a giant Asian killer robot. It was fun watching Green Arrow and Supergirl mock Captain Atom-- but I kind of thought Green Lantern would have gotten behind that, seeing as hw he griped about the lack of professionalism for the first two seasons of JL. Also, I loved Green Lantern’s smackdown of Supergirl at the end, threatening her with expulsion: “…I don’t care who your cousin is!” Yes, Black Canary is a hottie. As for “For The Man Who Has Everything…” it wasn’t bad. It’s probably terffifc but I still am mentally nitpicking what I saw with how it didn’t measure up to the comic. Ohhhhhhh, how I am annoyed by the half-hour restriction. This episode just missed this side of true greatness by dropping the two Kryptonian subplots of a deranged Jor-El and Kara’s attack. However, I must echo the observations of everyone else here who’ve said that this is the best adaptation of a Moore story yet. I’m just saying that bar’s still mighty low. And you guys…! They kept “BURN!” HOW COULD YOU NOT TELL ME THEY KEPT “BURN!!” And I had a wicked thought: suppose there’a a DVD version of this episode that’s slightly longer, with added scenes? One thing I don’t like about JLU is how they show previews of the episode in the opening credits. This is like movie trailers that show the whole plot. Gawd, I hope they drop this soon. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/37 "2004-08-12T22:38:56Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > Yeah, Marvel falls way behind DC in terms of having strong female characters. DC has Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, Batgirl, and currently Robin. Actually, currently, there is no Robin. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/38 "2004-08-13T00:11:29Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Actually, currently, there is no Robin. Probably for no more than six months. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/39 "2004-08-13T06:36:28Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Actually, currently, there is no Robin. True, but I didn’t know that at the time I posted. I get my comics from a subscription service every two weeks, so I’m sometimes as much as 2 1/2 weeks behind. I hadn’t recieved Robin 128 yet when I posted that. In any case, Stephanie, whether as Robin or Spoiler, is a fairly well-developed supporting female character who isn’t just the hero’s girlfriend. Her presense in the Batbooks, along with so many other females associated with Batman, still supports my contention that DC has better support for female characters than Marvel. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760/40 "2004-08-13T07:19:12Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > True, but I didn’t know that at the time I posted. I get my comics from a subscription service every two weeks, so I’m sometimes as much as 2 1/2 weeks behind. I hadn’t recieved Robin 128 yet when I posted that. Duuuuuuuuuuuude! You gotta find a comic book store that gives pull-list discounts. Seriously, it’s cool being able to go there late on a Wednesday afternoon or on Thursday\* and tell the guy behind the counter your box number and be instantly up to speed on the current storylines and be able to navigate comic-book related discussions without fear of accidental spoilage. All this and pay less than the cover price to boot. \*Assuming your work schedule allows for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-7-justice-league-for-the-man-who-has-everything/258760.md?page=3)