# 8 CIA Spooks Murdered in Afghanistan-Reaction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208 "2009-12-31T18:26:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/41 "2010-01-03T02:53:19Z")
**Freudian Slit** I do know where you live! Which city at least. 😉 > [@Skylark](#): > > Reminds me of a thread we had here once on Brazil Nuts. LOL kickin’ it old school. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t one of the big arguments against Iraq was it drew away resources and attention from Afghanistan, the “real” fight, the fight that mattered, the one that was justified in the eyes of the international community? When did that 180 happen? Yes, that still kind of pisses me off. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/42 "2010-01-03T06:32:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Taliban is as much an invading force as NATO. The difference is we build schools, educate women and have attempted to at least give them the ability to choose their leaders. The Taliban represent the polar opposite of this. I seriously doubt the CIA has much to do with building schools or educating women, but again, none of this has anything at all to do with what I said. In particular, the response to the OP’s point that you originally quoted is categorically not an argument as to whether or not the US is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ by some measure than the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/43 "2010-01-03T06:36:49Z")
Under our own definition, they were “unlawful combatants.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/44 "2010-01-03T07:11:13Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I seriously doubt the CIA has much to do with building schools or educating women, but again, none of this has anything at all to do with what I said. In particular, the response to the OP’s point that you originally quoted is categorically not an argument as to whether or not the US is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ by some measure than the Taliban. Heh, I think the difference would be that the Taliban build schools. Likely the Taliban have built more schools in Afghanistan than the CIA, but that’s not the point, the CIA doesn’t build schools. It’s also stupid to say that the Taliban are invaders. That’s such bullshit. **Magiver** really needs to read anything at all about the subject. I recommend he start with “Ghost Wars”, by Steve Coll. Afghanistan is the idea of Pushtun nationalism. The Taliban are the religious right so to speak of the Pushtun tribe. The Taliban are local if anyone is local. Now, as anyone who knows even a tiny bit about the subject knows the CIA has directed millions of aid dollars to organizations that DO build schools. But lets not consider that, lets just keep bashing America. Yay! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/45 "2010-01-03T07:28:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s also stupid to say that the Taliban are invaders. Call them whatever you want. They are bad people who have held Afghanistan hostage at the point of a gun. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/46 "2010-01-03T08:41:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Call them whatever you want. They are bad people who have held Afghanistan hostage at the point of a gun. It’s not about calling them. It’s about speaking about facts accurately. Which you failed to do. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/47 "2010-01-03T10:19:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Call them whatever you want. They are bad people who have held Afghanistan hostage at the point of a gun. Perhaps, in the usual American White Hat, Black Hat simplism. The other bad people who have “held Afghanistan hostage” are the various corrupt warlords that the Americans have charmingly allied themselves with, who exact feudal privileges at the point of a gun, fake elections to make the gullible Americans happy, and generally provoked the Taleban movement to “liberate” the country from warlordism. Sad to say, this is not one of your cowboy movies. It’s a real country with its own issues, history and peoples. The Empire once had to learn that. Apparently you will too, after lord knows how many billions you plan to piss away there trying to impose Cowboy Movie Morality. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/48 "2010-01-03T10:28:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Taliban is as much an invading force as NATO. The difference is we build schools, educate women and have attempted to at least give them the ability to choose their leaders. The Taliban represent the polar opposite of this. Aha, at least give them a choice, _**If the Choice (Karzai) is properly pleasing to the Americans, else they can fuck off**_. Some bloody choice they get, the right to elect someone the Americans like. And re the ‘foreignness’ of the Pakistan side Talebans, from the Pashtun point of view, it’s not particularly foreign, they are the same tribes: just because a British colonial administrator declared on top of their heads that there should be a border, doesn’t mean that they have ever accepted it. Learn some bloody history before making absurd statements. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/49 "2010-01-03T14:27:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Now, as anyone who knows even a tiny bit about the subject knows the CIA has directed millions of aid dollars to organizations that DO build schools. But lets not consider that, lets just keep bashing America. Yay! 1. It would be helpful if you could provide a citation or two for your assertion that the CIA is in the business of distributing Afghan school-building aid. I had a quick look around and nothing really jumped out at me. 2. What did I say that, in your view, consitutes ‘bashing America’? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/50 "2010-01-04T00:10:00Z")
What I don’t understand about the story is the news report that the suicide bomber was being brought in because we thought he would become an informant, and when he set off the bomb it killed CIA people associated with the drone operations (I don’t recall if they were drone operators or some kind of support). Isn’t it basic security not to have things like the drone operations and recruiting new informants c0-located? Wouldn’t these take place at distinctly different facilities? That seems like a well-understood security principle going back to before WWII. Are we just trying to be cheap? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/51 "2010-01-04T01:19:48Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Aha, at least give them a choice, _**If the Choice (Karzai) is properly pleasing to the Americans, else they can fuck off**_. Some bloody choice they get, the right to elect someone the Americans like. Sorry, no, Karzai is not America’s choice. He was voted in by his countryman. He is not looked at fondly by America because of his corrupt connections. The reality of Afghanistan is that it is a thoroughly corrupt nation that has never known a stable government. The population is poorly educated and the economy is agricultural in description only. For this country to succeed there has to be an educated populace and an infrastructure to support them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/52 "2010-01-04T01:27:13Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > 1. It would be helpful if you could provide a citation or two for your assertion that the CIA is in the business of distributing Afghan school-building aid. I had a quick look around and nothing really jumped out at me. The CIA is there in direct support of American Armed Forces who, as part of their job,build schools, roads and infrastructure. To make the claim that part of this operation isn’t directly slapping mortar to brick is a spurious argument. We ARE building schools and it’s the first time girls have ever been given a chance since the Taliban took over. To date, their contribution has been to [blow up the schools with girls in them](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/19/taliban-blamed-for-bombing-five-schools/). Not to limit themselves to Afghanistan, they’ve [bombed girl’s schools in Pakistan](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/01/19/2009-01-19_taliban_bomb_pakistan_schools_in_attack_.html). ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/53 "2010-01-04T02:59:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The CIA is there in direct support of American Armed Forces who, as part of their job,build schools, roads and infrastructure. To make the claim that part of this operation isn’t directly slapping mortar to brick is a spurious argument. We ARE building schools and it’s the first time girls have ever been given a chance since the Taliban took over. To date, their contribution has been to [blow up the schools with girls in them](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/19/taliban-blamed-for-bombing-five-schools/). Not to limit themselves to Afghanistan, they’ve [bombed girl’s schools in Pakistan](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/01/19/2009-01-19_taliban_bomb_pakistan_schools_in_attack_.html). To claim that an intelligence-gathering agency is in Afghanistan solely to build schools is patently absurd. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet simply because…well, I’m not sure, really. The OP asked for reactions to the killing of several CIA employees. I made one statement directly addressing that topic, that wasn’t particularly critical of the CIA at all. Sorry if you don’t like it. If you feel the CIA is not getting a fair shake here, you are welcome to start a thread on that subject. In this thread, however, I am finished wasting my time with you. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/54 "2010-01-04T03:33:15Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > 1. It would be helpful if you could provide a citation or two for your assertion that the CIA is in the business of distributing Afghan school-building aid. I had a quick look around and nothing really jumped out at me. The CIA disburses lots of money for many reasons. I can give you a cite, but you’d have to do some actual research on it. I don’t have a handy internet cite and you could do the same web search that I would do. Ghost Wars by Steve Coll should be required reading. Basically the CIA gave money to the ISI to be spent how they wanted to. The Saudis gave matching funds with certain conditions. SOME of that money went to building schools. > [@](#): > > 1. What did I say that, in your view, consitutes ‘bashing America’? Not you in particular, just sort of a general thing I threw out there. The reality of all this is very complex and trying to make a point about who built the most schools is ridiculous. The Taliban OBVIOUSLY built the most schools. Hell the Taliban probably built some of those schools with CIA capital. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/55 "2010-01-04T03:47:49Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > To claim that an intelligence-gathering agency is in Afghanistan solely to build schools is patently absurd. No one said that and you are a field of straw looking for a man to build. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/56 "2010-01-04T10:10:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sorry, no, Karzai is not America’s choice. He was voted in by his countryman. He is not looked at fondly by America because of his corrupt connections. … Well I will be buggered. I seem to live in a different reality than your alternative reality Cowboy world. Certainly in my reality Karzai has always been seen as [The American Choice](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/opinion/05iht-edgreenway.1.9757176.html), [in fact Karzai was originally chosen by the Americans to lead up the post Taleban effort.](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/11/23/MNGE8MEUES1.DTL) And contrary your right queer assertion, [to the Rest of the World, the US has long spoken strongly in support of Karzai.](http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/access/421908671.html?dids=421908671:421908671&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+15%2C+2002&author=&pub=Toronto+Star&desc=U.S.+defends+ties+with+Afghan+warlords+%3B+Critics+suggest+they+will+undercut+Karzai+as+leader&pqatl=google) Indeed, from [the very highest levels of Government.](http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2006/March/subcontinent_March45.xml§ion=subcontinent&col=) And then it seems the Rest of the Planet are Dupes in perceiving - Why no, it was an American Style [“Free & Fair Election” - the Afghan people have spoken - and where they haven’t why it is The Enemy that intimidated them, yes indeed, for who would vote against the Right Choice?](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6068136/Afghanistan-election-result-disputed-as-Hamid-Karzai-and-opponent-claim-victory.html) [And nary an American figure forcing a deal over a fraudulent election in favour of their man.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6180179/US-tries-to-force-Afghanistan-election-deal.html) Indeed it is pure coincidence that [Karzai has made much of keeping ‘Good Afghans’ known to the Americans in his cabinet.](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ayqjTwRoW9ZM&pos=9) It would be "Anti American™’ I suppose to draw any conclusion but that it was the “Afghan People” (tm, USA registered) that chose Karzai. No wonder the Left has so much fun with America as blundering Imperial Power, the role is played so bloody well. A lot of you Americans learned absolutely nothing in the past decade, never mind from Vietnam. _(Sorry some of these cites are to “foreign” sources of obviously untrustworthy character, and doubtlessly fiercely anti America, can’t trust Foreign can you?)_ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/57 "2010-01-04T10:24:33Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Well I will be buggered. I seem to live in a different reality than your alternative reality Cowboy world. > > Certainly in my reality Karzai has always been seen as [The American Choice](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/opinion/05iht-edgreenway.1.9757176.html), [in fact Karzai was originally chosen by the Americans to lead up the post Taleban effort.](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/11/23/MNGE8MEUES1.DTL) And contrary your right queer assertion, [to the Rest of the World, the US has long spoken strongly in support of Karzai.](http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/access/421908671.html?dids=421908671:421908671&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+15%2C+2002&author=&pub=Toronto+Star&desc=U.S.+defends+ties+with+Afghan+warlords+%3B+Critics+suggest+they+will+undercut+Karzai+as+leader&pqatl=google) Indeed, from [the very highest levels of Government.](http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2006/March/subcontinent_March45.xml§ion=subcontinent&col=) > > And then it seems the Rest of the Planet are Dupes in perceiving - Why no, it was an American Style [“Free & Fair Election” - the Afghan people have spoken - and where they haven’t why it is The Enemy that intimidated them, yes indeed, for who would vote against the Right Choice?](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6068136/Afghanistan-election-result-disputed-as-Hamid-Karzai-and-opponent-claim-victory.html) [And nary an American figure forcing a deal over a fraudulent election in favour of their man.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6180179/US-tries-to-force-Afghanistan-election-deal.html) Indeed it is pure coincidence that [Karzai has made much of keeping ‘Good Afghans’ known to the Americans in his cabinet.](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ayqjTwRoW9ZM&pos=9) It would be "Anti American™’ I suppose to draw any conclusion but that it was the “Afghan People” (tm, USA registered) that chose Karzai. > > No wonder the Left has so much fun with America as blundering Imperial Power, the role is played so bloody well. > > A lot of you Americans learned absolutely nothing in the past decade, never mind from Vietnam. > > _(Sorry some of these cites are to “foreign” sources of obviously untrustworthy character, and doubtlessly fiercely anti America, can’t trust Foreign can you?)_ I never got my absentee ballot so you’ll forgive me if I thought he was voted in by the people who risked their life doing it. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/58 "2010-01-05T10:16:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I never got my absentee ballot so you’ll forgive me if I thought he was voted in by the people who risked their life doing it. I’ll forgive you for being aggressively ignorant about the situation yet blithering on about it, and as well for setting an egregiously weak strawman (as of course I said nothing about Americans voting in the bloody elections, it’s your government manipulating, rather typical way these things happen, eh?). Your fantasy view of Afghanistan has fuck all to do with the realities, and the pretension that Karzai is anything but an American cut-out is merely egregious self-deception. _This of course was ironic as I cited conservative press, pro American actually: (Sorry some of these cites are to “foreign” sources of obviously untrustworthy character, and doubtlessly fiercely anti America, can’t trust Foreign can you?)_ ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/59 "2010-01-05T11:47:53Z")
I’m on the ground here right now, for about another 30 days. Though tragic those deaths were not murders. Casualties of war unfortunately. Can’t wait to get the fuck out of this shithole. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208/60 "2010-01-05T12:09:30Z")
If you are feeling like a powerless pawn in a game you didn’t even want to play, Welcome to the military, Cubsfan. I’ve no time for complainers who volunteered to be put in the situation they are in, unless they are also complaining to their commanding officers, or those who can affect policy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-cia-spooks-murdered-in-afghanistan-reaction/523208.md?page=4)