# 8 UN workers killed, as Afghans protest US pastor's Quran-burning - Hope Pastor Jones is happy now **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809 "2011-04-01T16:08:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/21 "2011-04-01T19:02:08Z")
Agreed that the murderers are far, far worse people than Jones. I further agree that Jones had every legal right to express his political views - which is as it should be, in a free society. That said, it’s perfectly fair to say that these views are assinine. And that Jones knew - because he’d had it very carefully explained to him by many people - that expressing his assinine views in this way could be used by even more assinine people to justify violence. He did it anyway. For this reason, even though I would defend Jones with everything I’ve got from any legal sanction, I think it’s fair to conclude he’s an ass. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/22 "2011-04-01T19:04:14Z")
“…take history into account…” “…restrain himself…” Bullshit. That’s allowing radicals to dictate behavior standards for the entire free world. Neither Islam nor any other faith has the right to impose their will on others. I’m not religious. I am not bound by any religious laws, principles, or beliefs. I owe no duty to any religious leader. Believe whatever you like…but you do not get to impose that belief on others in any way, shape, or form. You don’t get to riot, threaten, or kill anyone that doesn’t play by your rules. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/23 "2011-04-01T19:10:29Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > They could have protested in any lawful way…burn Jones in effigy…hell…burn a picture of John Wayne if they want. Send a nasty letter to the editor of the local newspaper. Draw cartoons of Jones burning in Hell. Something like that. Say, they could have burned a Bible! It would have been equally adversarial and stupid since their religions are pretty much the same freaking stupid thing in the first place. I do find guys like Jones galling especially for that reason. ‘My religion’s about Jesus, the prince of peace, and your shit’s all retarded, so fuck you.’ Whatever. Bunch of morons. It’s also true that Jones’ action precipitated a riot where a bunch of people got killed because he wanted to make his pissy little statement about Islam and didn’t care what might happen if he did it. It’s true that he didn’t start the riot, but it’s also true that if he’d listened to all the people who talked him out of this protest the last time, a bunch of people wouldn’t be dead. Of course he’s not the only one missing the point. Karzai’s response about a crime against a religion is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/24 "2011-04-01T19:12:29Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Why? He’s not breaking any laws. He’s expressing a political and/or religious opinion, as he has every right to do. Not-breaking-the-law and having-the-right are not sufficient to make an action _right_. Honestly, **Oak** , I thought you had enough independent moral fiber to recognize that principle. > [@Oakminster](#): > > …the criminals should have restrained themselves from committing mass murder and mob violence over some perceived insult to their religion. I agree, absolutely. They are vicious criminals, and their (moral) crime is worse than his. But Jones is not blameless. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/25 "2011-04-01T19:25:54Z")
I’m not nominating Jones for man of the year or anything. He sure sounds like an asshole. I do, however, now and forevermore, flatly reject any notion of an obligation to avoid offending radicals for fear of what criminal actions they may take in response. I’m going on a picnic this weekend with my Druidess. Odds are good I’ll be eating some form of pork product. I’m pretty sure that somewhere in the world there’s an Iman and maybe a Rabbi that would say I shouldn’t oughta do that. Too fucking bad. I like pork. I’m gonna eat pork whether religious folks like it or not. Maybe Jones gets a woody when he fires up a Quran. OK, that would make him weird, and an asshole…but still would not make him morally responsible for the criminal acts of third parties. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/26 "2011-04-01T19:30:41Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > He was deliberately provocative. Maybe he didn’t “want” people to be killed in response to his actions, but he knew perfectly well they might be, and yet he went ahead with his protected free expression _to no other end_. I believe that your posts are a blasphemous affront to God, and I am warning you now that if you ever post on this message board again, I am going to go out and kill fifty people. My belief may be described as delusional, with no connection to observable reality, but what matters, however, is that I hold it with tremendous convicion. I believe that the heavens shake with outrage every time you post. You may have some difficulty appreciating the gravity of this situation. You may argue that your posts make serious points, and that I have no right to get such a giant bug up my ass every time you choose to voice your opinions in an open forum. You may not understand why I am offended. After all, it’s just a post. However, you don’t _have_ to understand. You just have to accept that, for reasons of my own, I find the act of you posting to be an unspeakable insult to my ethics, my personal identity and my God. And I will kill fifty people if you ever post here again. Now that you are aware of this, I trust you to take my feelings into account every time you are tempted to post, as well as the terrible consequences of offending me. If you ever _do_ post again, I will assume it was with the sole intention blaspheming my God. Again, you don’t have to understand _why_ I will be offended. You just have to accept that, just as dawn follows dusk, I _will_ be. [sub]This incredibly dickish post was written so solely to make a point. I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against spark240 and am just trying to convey my opinion that people shouldn’t be held responsible for violence committed by others in response to speech that didn’t advocate such.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Rotlla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Rotlla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rotlla)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/27 "2011-04-01T19:33:46Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > I have a weensy suspicion that if a radical atheist burned a Bible, and fundementalist Christians in the American South rioted in protest and killed eight people, that the condemnation on this Board who be tilted pretty heavily toward the latter. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re attempting to draw a contrast between people’s reactions to burning a Bible and to burning a Qur’an? You’re doing this based on how you imagine posters would react to a hypothetical news story, and contrasting it with how people are reacting to this one? Even though you’re only the 6th post in the thread – making the reaction you’re seeing to THIS news story also hypothetical, really. Especially since, if I’m not guessing wrong, I think you’re trying to say that the posters in this thread are not blaming the perpetrators of this violence as hard as they should, even though the majority of posts preceding yours _did_ in fact condemn the (outrageous) actions of the Afghani protesters. You’re comparing one hypothetical response to another hypothetical response and drawing conclusions about the board based on them. You must have a truly amazing intellect in order to deduce so much based on so little evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Rotlla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Rotlla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rotlla)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/28 "2011-04-01T19:35:03Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > How is Jones responsible for the criminal actions of third parties on the other side of the world? Who, exactly, do you think said otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/29 "2011-04-01T19:44:26Z")
> [@Rotlla](#): > > Who, exactly, do you think said otherwise? **Astro** –in the last 6 words of the thread title **Spark** with his bit about showing restraint \*\* Omegaman\*\* with his bit about taking history into account And that young lawyerling I don’t speak to anymore with his roundabout way of blaming Jones for the violence because other people told him it would happen. ---
**Author:** ![Rotlla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Rotlla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rotlla)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/30 "2011-04-01T19:48:57Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > **Astro** –in the last 6 words of the thread title > > **Spark** with his bit about showing restraint > \*\* > Omegaman\*\* with his bit about taking history into account > > And that young lawyerling I don’t speak to anymore with his roundabout way of blaming Jones for the violence because other people told him it would happen. Just rechecked, and none of them said anything like that. And certainly none of the ones that preceded your post – i.e. the posts you were responding to. Attempting to reference _later_ responses to justify yours could really be taken as an admission of well-poisoning. Do you not read well? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/31 "2011-04-01T19:49:15Z")
So, I take this tragedy as proof that we ought to withdraw from Afghanistan. Clearly, we cannot avoid insulting Mslims, so lets get out. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/32 "2011-04-01T19:49:18Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > I believe that your posts are a blasphemous affront to God, and I am warning you now that if you ever post on this message board again, I am going to go out and kill fifty people. Ok, now what if **spark240** actually had reason to believe that this wasnt just hyperbole, and that you just might go out and kill fifty people? What if it actually was a possible consequence? Really think about this. Should he still post? Not _can_ he post? **Should** he post? He might have the right to post, but **should** he do it? I believe in basic human rights, but you know, sometimes even idealistic concepts like freedom of speech shouldnt ignore the physical reality of cause and effect. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/33 "2011-04-01T19:54:59Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Agreed that the murderers are far, far worse people than Jones. No, they are much the same. This is a standard pattern the Right loves to indulge in. They do or say something that they _know_ will whip up the fanatics - theirs or some other bunch of fanatics like in this case. And then when the predictable bloodshed happens they pretend that that wasn’t what they wanted all along, and do it again later. It’s a way of indulging in religious & political violence while keeping your hands clean. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/34 "2011-04-01T20:00:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They do or say something that they _know_ will whip up the fanatics - theirs or some other bunch of fanatics … Which right wing fanatics are you referring to, who attack and kill dozens of innocent UN workers? Can’t think of any similar instances off of the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/35 "2011-04-01T20:04:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they are much the same. This is a standard pattern the Right loves to indulge in. They do or say something that they _know_ will whip up the fanatics - theirs or some other bunch of fanatics like in this case. And then when the predictable bloodshed happens they pretend that that wasn’t what they wanted all along, and do it again later. It’s a way of indulging in religious & political violence while keeping your hands clean. Og knows the fanatics are without the ability to control themselves. We should all prostrate ourselves and request thrashings You’re right Der Trihs Much the same…bull shit ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/36 "2011-04-01T20:07:18Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Ok, now what if **spark240** actually had reason to believe that this wasnt just hyperbole, and that you just might go out and kill fifty people? What if it actually was a possible consequence? Really think about this. The problem with this analogy is that the extremist muslims are going to behead people no matter what the pastor does. If the fifty people are going to be killed no matter what, you might as well not walk on eggshells to avoid offending the killer. It’s too bad the pastor burned that Koran. Before that, the Muslims never beheaded anybody. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/37 "2011-04-01T20:08:31Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > I believe in basic human rights, but you know, sometimes even idealistic concepts like freedom of speech shouldnt ignore the physical reality of cause and effect. So the entire world should follow Islamic law for fear of what criminals may do? Bullshit. Where do we draw the line? No burning Qurans, that might offend the Muslims. No eating spaghetti, that might offend the Pastafarians. No eating meat, that might offend the Cult of Bambi. No fucking out of wedlock, because that offends Christians. No more college football, because Saturday is a big deal for Jewish folks. Caving in to radicals only inspires more radicals to make demands. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/38 "2011-04-01T20:12:13Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Which right wing fanatics are you referring to, who attack and kill dozens of innocent UN workers? No, they kill doctors, shoot at politicians or cops and beat gays instead. Or blow up federal buildings. > [@flickster](#): > > Og knows the fanatics are without the ability to control themselves. They can’t or won’t, which is what makes them useful tools for demagogues like this preacher. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/39 "2011-04-01T20:14:12Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Yes, and an equally fine example of third world Muslims. Can’t argue that point and to be sure killing people over a book is fucking ridiculous, but based on previous actions over something as stupid as a comic strip, he knew it was going to stir up the shit. Yeah, and those dead people wont be needing to worry about _their_ rights. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809/40 "2011-04-01T20:17:48Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > So the entire world should follow Islamic law for fear of what criminals may do? Bullshit. Where do we draw the line? > > No burning Qurans, that might offend the Muslims. > > No eating spaghetti, that might offend the Pastafarians. > > No eating meat, that might offend the Cult of Bambi. > > No fucking out of wedlock, because that offends Christians. > > No more college football, because Saturday is a big deal for Jewish folks. > > Caving in to radicals only inspires more radicals to make demands. What do you mean caving in? They made no demands. That shitstain took upon himself to do something he knew would have reprecussions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-un-workers-killed-as-afghans-protest-us-pastors-quran-burning-hope-pastor-jones-is-happy-now/576809.md?page=3)