# 8-year-old boy kills himself with AK-47 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838 "2008-10-27T20:31:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/81 "2008-10-28T12:38:36Z")
Oh goody - a gun thread ! Problem with guns is that 95% \* of people who have them, think they are qualified and responsible enough to have them. Stories like this only go to show that 95% \*\* of them are of average intelgence and only manage to avoid killing people - whether by accident or on purpose, by sheer luck. Im sure if you do a poll to NRA members and ask if they think thier guns are safe in thier hands, 100% would respond with a ‘fuk yeh’. The question for gun advocates is how low should the actual figure be before the costs DONT outweigh the benefits ? - - i made that up… \*\* - and that. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/82 "2008-10-28T12:44:35Z")
This is negligence, pure and simple, for which the parents ought to be forced to answer. The folks holding the ‘gun fair’ should, no matter what the law says, NOT permit children to tinker with fucking automatic weapons. I’ve been a proponent of guns my entire life. I know how to use them, how to be safe with them and am comfortable with the fact they are tools for a job, nothing more, nothing less. When I was 8, the most I was able to touch in the way of firearms was not my Dad’s .308 or M1, no no, I had a lever action bb gun that I could only shoot whenever I was with my dad, never alone. When I was 10 I shot my first actual gun. A bolt action .22 at Scout camp. To put an uzi in my hands at that age would have meant death for someone. Morons. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/83 "2008-10-28T12:56:07Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Because automatic weapons like Uzis will all, due to their recoil, display the effects of muzzle climb. Technically, any time you shoot anything, part of the recoil involves the muzzle going up. There’s a video on youtube of a girl firing a Desert Eagle where she fires one shot and the muzzle of the gun comes up and back and hits her in the nose. > > Keeping in mind that the physics dictate muzzle climb will happen, as the muzzle comes up and back from each shot, with automatic fire you’re not leveling and lowering your muzzle between rounds, it’s going to be additive. > > With a rifle, butt against your shoulder, you’re not going to shoot yourself because your body will also be twisting, basically keeping the rifle perpendicular to your spine. > > This was a child with an Uzi. The recoil will be more pronounced, the effect of muzzle climb more dramatic, and because he’s holding it out in front of him with his arms, his wrists are going to turn up and elbows are going to bend. > > Physically, that’s how it happens. > > **Of course, this never should have happened because an adult should not have let an 8 year old fire an Uzi to begin with**. Yep. How sad. If you’re going to educate children on gun safety by showing them how to use and respect firearms, you have to start with pellet guns and .22’s. Absolutely no reason exists that I can think of where an 8 year old should be even touching a weapon like an Uzi. No reason at all. And now the kid is dead. ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/84 "2008-10-28T13:06:29Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > I know how to use them, how to be safe with them … So buttonjockey knows how to use them safely. Had we asked the gun club owners, the organisers of the show and the parents 10 mins before this kid was handed a mini uzi, they also would have said they know how to use them safely. And their statement would have been as valid and important as yours buttonjockey. Question: As a potential visitor to your country, how can i tell who is telling the truth ? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/85 "2008-10-28T13:06:36Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > According to the law, do they distinguish between machine guns and other firearms? The article seemed to say that IF permission and supervision are in place, this child handling this particular weapon was within the law. I read through the MA laws on all types of firearms again last night. Owning/possessing a fully automatic weapon (i.e. that fires bullets continuously until the trigger is released) takes a class 3 FFL as well as the permission of the Chief of Police in your town. However, there are no restrictions on having another person use a firearm that you own in your presence and under your direct control. So you can legally take a child, or a convicted felon, or someone who has been hospitalized for mental care (all of which would bar one from owning a gun) to a range and let them fire to their hearts’ content, legally. ETA: I’m betting that the above paragraph will change after the next legislative session. No doubt some lower age limits will be imposed for shooting, even under the supervision & instruction of a certified firearms instructor. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/86 "2008-10-28T13:09:10Z")
> [@sinical\_brit](#): > > So buttonjockey knows how to use them safely. > > Had we asked the gun club owners, the organisers of the show and the parents 10 mins before this kid was handed a mini uzi, they also would have said they know how to use them safely. And their statement would have been as valid and important as yours buttonjockey. > > Question: As a potential visitor to your country, how can i tell who is telling the truth ? You can’t. So please stay home. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/87 "2008-10-28T13:12:44Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Fine, I’ll bite you. Fact is that countries that don’t have widespread accessibility to guns, or a culture of worshipping them, also don’t have stories about children killing themselves accidentally with them. Listen. I know you’re from merry old England where the skies are perpetually sunny and chimney sweeps and houskeepers whistle a happy tune while dancing down cobblestone streets accompanied by all manner of happy-faced woodland creatures, but let’s not pretend. People are violent against people and accidents happen. Guns are a tool, no more no less. Saying Americans ‘worship’ guns is high-handed rhetoric at best and at worst an outright lie. Saying some Americans are obsessed with the gun would be more accurate, and not as, you know, alarmist. Bad things happen to children that shouldn’t all the time. In fact, in 2003 America, kids between 5 and 14 years of age died from motor vehicle accidents, drownings, suffocations, fires and ATV/bicycle accidents by far ahead of homicide by firearm and further still away from suicide/unintentional by firearm. These articles lead because children bleed and the gun is a fit demon for such scary stories, the facts are more children die in cars and pools than at the end of gun. We have found that having widespread accessibility to firearms leads, in total, to a safer populace, free from tyranny, free from invasion and free, as history has taught, from those who wish to do us harm both as a person and as a country. The firearm allows us to do these things as the hammer allows us to hang pictures or the flashlight allows us to see in the dark. The parents are the people responsible for this. It would be no different if the child were operating a chainsaw at a hardware convention and lopped off his arm. Would you hold the chainsaw responsible or the parent? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/88 "2008-10-28T13:20:30Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > We have found that having widespread accessibility to firearms leads, in total, to a safer populace, free from tyranny, free from invasion and free, as history has taught, from those who wish to do us harm both as a person and as a country. No, we haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/89 "2008-10-28T13:21:20Z")
> [@sinical\_brit](#): > > So buttonjockey knows how to use them safely. > > Had we asked the gun club owners, the organisers of the show and the parents 10 mins before this kid was handed a mini uzi, they also would have said they know how to use them safely. And their statement would have been as valid and important as yours buttonjockey. > > Question: As a potential visitor to your country, how can i tell who is telling the truth ? Sinical, like many stupid things people do, this was done in a moment that did not, obviously, give thought to safety. People, as I’ve seen in my nearly 18 years on the streets picking up after them, do things without thinking of the consequence. I think if you had asked a show organizer if he or she thought it wise to hand an Uzi to an 8 year old, the answer would be no. I think if the parent saw fit to hand his child an uzi that the parent should answer for the consequence. I think you should trust what people say only as far as your experiences with them allow. I invite you to our shores and to enjoy our many wonders both natural and man-made, with the knowledge that no matter where you go in the world, you are only as safe as your observations. There are plenty of good, decent, honest and indeed safe people here, despite the fact that many of us have guns. In fact, you may be safer because we do. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/90 "2008-10-28T13:22:30Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > No, we haven’t. No. YOU haven’t. The truth of history escapes you. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/91 "2008-10-28T13:24:30Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > No. YOU haven’t. > > The truth of history escapes you. Sure, and America is God’s favorite country. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/92 "2008-10-28T13:27:58Z")
I’ve a question. What are we talking about in terms of legal punishment, here? Manslaughter is? Negligent Homicide? And directed at who? I too am not ecstatic about an 8 year old handling an mini-Uzi. Politics aside, I think probably the best way of trying to clamp down on this kind of thing might be beefing up the deterrent, for all involved, as a means that most people on either side of the gun fence would agree with. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/93 "2008-10-28T13:33:04Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > No. YOU haven’t. > > The truth of history escapes you. What history? My granny had a chair older than your country! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/94 "2008-10-28T13:48:18Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > You can’t. So please stay home. Same question, and I _am_ home. Do you have a serious answer to this very serious question? It is possible to examine the backround and training of those involved in this tragic incident(_not_ “accident”), and yet you would have us believe that we should trust your judgement over theirs. Why? ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/95 "2008-10-28T13:52:21Z")
Thank you for your calm and considered response buttonjockey308 . I hope to come to the US one day. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/96 "2008-10-28T14:04:44Z")
I’d like to blame it all on Thomas Knapp, if I could only find the rancour. Here is a man who almost every male from 6 to 60+ would like to be able to emulate, making a lethal weapon look like a cool toy. As much as I admire the effort and dedication that has gone into honing these skills, I feel it is still sending out a mixed message. Although not where Benelli shotguns are concerned. I’m also jealous as hell of the old dude! ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/97 "2008-10-28T14:08:58Z")
> [@sinical\_brit](#): > > So buttonjockey knows how to use them safely. > > Had we asked the gun club owners, the organisers of the show and the parents 10 mins before this kid was handed a mini uzi, they also would have said they know how to use them safely. And their statement would have been as valid and important as yours buttonjockey. > > Question: As a potential visitor to your country, how can i tell who is telling the truth ? As a Brit living in the US, having lived in some areas with very high gun ownership… The overwhelming majority of gun owners I have come across are incredibly responsible. It is incredibly rare to come across a gun, outside of the hands of law enforcement, unless you want to see it. I have, in 13 years, been made uncomfortable in any way by a gun twice. The first time was in a bar, where the person absolutely should not have been carrying it - even if he had a permit, which I highly doubt, he was on licensed premises, and was drunk. He had it tucked into the back of his jeans, and it was showing when he leant forward. I simply told the bartender, who was a friend of mine, and she asked him (because she knew him) to take it out to his car or leave. He did. The other time was much less simple. Outside my apartment a person got into an altercation with a couple of other youths, pulled a handgun,a nd shot one of them in the thigh. The gun was a .22, and did not do huge damage to him. It was not a pleasant thing, obviously. However, it was the kind of situation that in the UK would probably have resulted in a knifing. Both times, to be honest, I was in areas a tourist would have been very unlikely to be. I sincerely doubt if you visit you will see any real evidence of gun ownership. I don’t know where in the UK you are, but as a rule, the US is significantly safer in most areas than the UK. There are areas of the US that are MUCH less safe, but you won’t be in them. DC, for example, always gets cited as a city with a major violence problem, and it is, but visitors stay in the NW of the city as a rule, and I have never felt at risk in any way there. Certainly there seems to be far less evidence of low level violence in the US, not least because there isn’t the problem that existed when I was in the UK of pubs all kicking out at the same time, and streams of drunk yobs who slammed as many pints as possible in a short time spilling out into the street, brawling over places in kebab queues and taxi ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/98 "2008-10-28T14:14:49Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > The parents are the people responsible for this. It would be no different if the child were operating a chainsaw at a hardware convention and lopped off his arm. Would you hold the chainsaw responsible or the parent? This isn’t just about someone using a tool and getting hurt. It’s about gun culture. What prompted this man to allow his son to shoot a Micro Uzi? Most likely the fact that shooting a fully automatic weapon is fun and cool, and he’d get to brag to his buddies when he got home. Guns are tools. That’s great, maybe more people would buy into that idea when we stop treating them like toys. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/99 "2008-10-28T14:19:03Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Sinical, like many stupid things people do, this was done in a moment that did not, obviously, give thought to safety. People, as I’ve seen in my nearly 18 years on the streets picking up after them, do things without thinking of the consequence. I think if you had asked a show organizer if he or she thought it wise to hand an Uzi to an 8 year old, the answer would be no. I think if the parent saw fit to hand his child an uzi that the parent should answer for the consequence. I think you should trust what people say only as far as your experiences with them allow. I invite you to our shores and to enjoy our many wonders both natural and man-made, with the knowledge that no matter where you go in the world, you are only as safe as your observations. > > There are plenty of good, decent, honest and indeed safe people here, despite the fact that many of us have guns. In fact, you may be safer because we do. But as this example shows us, people with lousy judgement also have guns and those errors in judgement (and there are many) sometimes end badly. I’ll bet you a fortune that this kid’s dad wishes he’d never seen a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/100 "2008-10-28T14:30:59Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Guns are tools. That’s great, maybe more people would buy into that idea when we stop treating them like toys. This is it. We don’t have hammer conventions, at least not as entertainment. We don’t have hammer clubs or hammer message boards. We don’t display them on walls and show them off to friends. Hammers are not fetishised.\* There is something wrong with a culture that this to guns, and you can’t use the “just a tool” excuse. \*I’m fully aware that there are probably examples of all the above out there. But they would certainly be regarded as abnormal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838.md?page=6)