# 8-year-old boy kills himself with AK-47 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838 "2008-10-27T20:31:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/141 "2008-10-28T18:12:23Z")
See for yourself. Here’s the 2003 data from the CDC I mentioned. [First is overall:](http://ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/ncipc/10LC-2003/PDF/10lc-2003.pdf) The second breaks out the unintentional. [The third highlights only violence](http://ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/ncipc/10LC-2003/PDF/10lc-violence.pdf) Kids are more at risk in common every day situations according to this data than they are because of guns. This data and my own experience responding to emergencies for the last 18 years is enough to convince me. That said, do I think we need to fix the problem of gun violence for those other age groups? Hell yes. I think there’s far too much in the general media that glorifies the gun as everything from problem solver to income enhancer, but the question is, do we limit the first amendment to address the societal problems we’re having with the second? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/142 "2008-10-28T18:12:42Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Frankly, I don’t know and may I never have to find out. > > In case you missed it, I don’t buy in to that, or God, at least as these nutwads understand God. You do, though. The only difference is that your god can be reloaded. "As far as my argument, believe it cracked if you wish, but do you deny the role of [the Lord] in American history? Can you envision an America in it’s current state without the role that [Christian worship] played? Nobody’s invading Canada. Nobody’s invading the UK. Guns don’t keep invaders away anymore, and have not since the days of cowboys vs. Indians. Your gun has no magic power to prevent tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/143 "2008-10-28T18:16:52Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > When did I say that Kalhoun? When exactly? > > This child is dead. His father is responsible. How do I in my supposedly cracked argument promote handing out automatic weapons to third graders? I’m just annoyed when people bring up the ol’ “but cars kill people too” argument. It’s not the same thing. It’s not even in the same ballpark. It’s not a valid comparison for the stupidity that was exhibited when these adults handed a little kid a loaded automatic weapon that is designed solely to kill people. I can tell you that if my child died in a car accident, I would feel grief, but not GUILT for teaching him how to drive. The guilt these people feel will be deserved. They’re not equipped with the judgement necessary to operate firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/144 "2008-10-28T18:24:44Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Goodness gracious, Barbie! > > Having consumed the data stored on your first neuron (the word “fuckwit”) and recruited the entire dataset on your other neuron (the term “fucking lame”), you’ve exhausted your entire mental capacity and turned to getting excited about previous and completely unrelated topics. Reminds me of a little doggie who knows he’s upset about something, but in his inability to generate a coherent response just starts peeing over everything in sight, including himself, while he’s yapping as ferociously as he can. > > Don’t worry; it’s OK for you to pleasure yourself here in the Pit calling people naughty words. I realize it may be your sole source of pleasure with your only partner. Part of the reason for the Pit is, of course, to let the mentally underserved use Big People names instead of saying anything cogent when they dribble here. > > Have a friend read my original posts to you about the topic at hand so that they can help you understand the point being made. > > Some “Barbarian”… > > What are you really–some kinda scrawny pinhead loser living in front a computer screen hoping the world infers a significance for you based on the drivel you post here? I am embarrassed for barbarians everywhere. > > How about asking the mods for a new tag? > > Barbie the Puppy Dribbler, maybe? Since you offer no defense for your feeble grasp of statistics and ezposure to risk, I’ll just observe that you must be one of those people who hear that “75% of accidents happen within five miles of home” and think “Wow, I live in a dangerous neighborhood.” ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/145 "2008-10-28T18:28:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I didn’t say it was the gun’s fault. I was taking issue with your argument that the US still exists and has never been invaded because of the 2nd Amendment. There’s a HELL of a lot more to it than that. > Oh, and I do INDEED hold the people who held the show responsible. Did you READ the advertisement for the event? It’s linked on the first page of the thread-“other fun stuff we’re not allowed to mention?”) Obviously, they knew damned well things weren’t on the up and up and didn’t seem to give a shit. First, that’s why I said “In Part” due to the 2nd amendment and was stating it as germaine to the conversation. I KNOW there is more to it than that, believe me, but we’re not talking about anything else right now. I didn’t read that until you pointed it out. My guess when they’re saying “other fun stuff we’re not allowed to mention” is that they have the obligatory Saddam or Osama targets to shoot at, but can’t mention those for fear of some backlash. The only person responsible for the child is his father. If the father were walking past a strip joint and decided to go inside, that isn’t the fault (at least not legally) of the strip joint. Do they have a moral obligation to boot the kid and his father? Youbetcha. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/146 "2008-10-28T18:30:39Z")
Any word on if the rest of shooting party was canceled after the kid was shot? If I had to guess, I’d say there was 20 minutes or so of tears or head shaking by the crowd, then back to shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/147 "2008-10-28T18:41:30Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > The only person responsible for the child is his father. If the father were walking past a strip joint and decided to go inside, that isn’t the fault (at least not legally) of the strip joint. Do they have a moral obligation to boot the kid and his father? Youbetcha. More importantly, apparently, they have a legal obligation to boot the kid and his father. The gun show did not, which appears to be a failure on the part of Massachusetts lawmakers. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/148 "2008-10-28T18:44:03Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Nobody’s invading Canada. Nobody’s invading the UK. Guns don’t keep invaders away anymore, and have not since the days of cowboys vs. Indians. Your gun has no magic power to prevent tyranny. Tyranny isn’t a matter solely of invasion or a dictatorial government. An armed population is less likely to be subjected to police techniques that violate basic rights. Yes if a government these days wants to totally disregards the fundamental rights of its populace, that populace being armed probably won’t stop them, though it wouldn’t hurt, certainly. But I would argue that an armed population makes it harder to kick down doors willy-nilly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/149 "2008-10-28T18:49:35Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Tyranny isn’t a matter solely of invasion or a dictatorial government. An armed population is less likely to be subjected to police techniques that violate basic rights. Bollocks. I don’t own a gun. Do you honestly thing that makes it more likely that the police will kick down my door without a warrant? ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/150 "2008-10-28T18:50:43Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m just annoyed when people bring up the ol’ “but cars kill people too” argument. It’s not the same thing. It’s not even in the same ballpark. It’s not a valid comparison for the stupidity that was exhibited when these adults handed a little kid a loaded automatic weapon that is designed solely to kill people. I can tell you that if my child died in a car accident, I would feel grief, but not GUILT for teaching him how to drive. The guilt these people feel will be deserved. They’re not equipped with the judgement necessary to operate firearms. I can understand that. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/151 "2008-10-28T18:52:25Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Tyranny isn’t a matter solely of invasion or a dictatorial government. An armed population is less likely to be subjected to police techniques that violate basic rights. –such as those basic rights violations common in Canada and the UK? Give me an idea of the sort of police abuses I’m safer from here in the US. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/152 "2008-10-28T18:52:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > More importantly, apparently, they have a legal obligation to boot the kid and his father. The gun show did not, which appears to be a failure on the part of Massachusetts lawmakers. What? If there’s not a law that requires them to do it, because the law was not yet made, they don’t in fact have a legal obligation. I understand what you’re driving at, but what? ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/153 "2008-10-28T18:55:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Bollocks. I don’t own a gun. Do you honestly thing that makes it more likely that the police will kick down my door without a warrant? Use China as an example. What if the Chinese citizenry were armed? I think China would be a different place today. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/154 "2008-10-28T18:55:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Bollocks. I don’t own a gun. Do you honestly thing that makes it more likely that the police will kick down my door without a warrant? Notice I never said that an individual was less likely to have their door kicked down. I talked about an armed populace as opposed to an unarmed populace. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/155 "2008-10-28T19:00:25Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > –such as those basic rights violations common in Canada and the UK? Give me an idea of the sort of police abuses I’m safer from here in the US. This is ridiculous. It is just another variant of the argument that Country X has guns, Country Y doesn’t, therefore if Country X’s crime rate is higher, it must be because of guns. All I said is that a police force is less likely to be kicking down doors willy-nilly if they think there is a significant chance they will be greeted by a person defending his property, than if they know that is not a possibility. And, while I have never lived in Canada, I believe the protections for individuals from police abuses are higher in the US than the UK. I’ve also found the police here to be generally politer and more respectful to the population, having been a lucky recipient of the Met’s friendliness on more than one occasion. I’ll admit other people in the US have different experiences, but that is my personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/156 "2008-10-28T19:03:38Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Tyranny isn’t a matter solely of invasion or a dictatorial government. An armed population is less likely to be subjected to police techniques that violate basic rights. > > Yes if a government these days wants to totally disregards the fundamental rights of its populace, that populace being armed probably won’t stop them, though it wouldn’t hurt, certainly. But I would argue that an armed population makes it harder to kick down doors willy-nilly. I’d say an armed population just makes it more likely that if the door is kicked down, the armed civilian gets blamed for it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/157 "2008-10-28T19:13:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > All I said is that a police force is less likely to be kicking down doors willy-nilly if they think there is a significant chance they will be greeted by a person defending his property, than if they know that is not a possibility. This argument makes no sense to me. Guns are legal in the US for most people. Defending your property from the police with a gun isn’t legal. If the police burst into your house and you shoot at them, you’re most likely dead instead of jailed. Even if you manage to kill all of the police intruders, you are seriously up shit creek. The gun helps not at all in that circumstance. Saying, “But they were infringing on my rights!” isn’t going to make you not-dead. I don’t know why people can’t grasp this. If the law as an entity turns against you, guns will not help. Guns can only help when the law is on your side. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/158 "2008-10-28T19:20:34Z")
I don’t agree, **jsgoddess**. Even if part of your premise is right, you are ignoring the effect on the police themselves. They don’t want to be shot. It isn’t a pleasant experience. The removal of the sole monopoly over force from the government creates government agents who are more likely to be polite. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/159 "2008-10-28T19:20:56Z")
> [@villa](#): > > This is ridiculous. It is just another variant of the argument that Country X has guns, Country Y doesn’t, therefore if Country X’s crime rate is higher, it must be because of guns. What do you mean it’s ridiculous?! That’s exactly the argument you were using! Country X has guns, Country Y doesn’t, therefore Country X’s police abuses will be lower because of guns. I just asked you to specify which abuses are more common! You claim that police are less likely to be kicking down doors willy-nilly in the US. But I’m pretty sure that doors get kicked down by police quite a lot in the US anyway, so it seems like kind of a marginal benefit for civil rights if it even exists in the first place-- which I tend to doubt, as Canadians are not streaming across the border to escape their nation’s Gestapo-like police tactics. Although the RCMP do boast that they “always get their man,” so maybe they are unreasonably cocky in that respect. I guess if I were a Canadian who really wanted to live in a country where shooting the police is more tolerated culturally, I’d think about relocating to the US. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838/160 "2008-10-28T19:25:50Z")
> [@villa](#): > > All I said is that a police force is less likely to be kicking down doors willy-nilly if they think there is a significant chance they will be greeted by a person defending his property, than if they know that is not a possibility. Would love to see a cite on this. AFAIK, they’re just more likely to do it wearing protective gear. I also can’t quite get behind the idea that they’re more ‘polite’ to people (gang members? drug dealers?) who are more likely to be armed. But what a glorious line of reasoning in this last page. Kind of reminds me of some Canadian stand-up I saw who said something like: ‘Americans think Canadians are so polite. We’re not. But you’re armed, and we’re not stupid.’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/8-year-old-boy-kills-himself-with-ak-47/469838.md?page=9)