# 86 Dead and Counting. Where was the Common Sense? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 21, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611 "2003-02-21T20:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/101 "2003-02-23T14:57:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Persephone \* > \*\*Last night, my husband found a site with a copy of the written contract on it. He’s still sleeping, so when he wakes up, I’ll have him get it for me and I’ll post a link. It was in the wee hours when he found it, but IIRC, there’s no mention of pyrotechnics. \*\* [http://www.thesmokinggun.com/doc\_o\_day/doc\_o\_day.shtml](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/doc_o_day/doc_o_day.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/102 "2003-02-23T16:46:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*Wow. When I was in high school, we frequently had to have people smoking on stage. In fact, **I** had to light and smoke a cigarette onstage once, which sucked since I don’t smoke. > > I guess it was probably illegal :eek: \*\* Actually it depends on the juristiction, type of “house” (professional level as defined by whichever guilds), your building and building codes, any unions you may be working with etc. Buildings that are built specifically as performance venues have the most stringent fire safety rules. Educational buildings or school property can be weird and confusing as far as the laws go because the performance spaces aren’t always considered to be “performance spaces”. Your high school auditorium may have been officially a “lecture hall” etc… Nowadays the hurdles some on-campus theatres have with onstage smoking is that the are rules that say “all campus buildings are smoke-free” and the actors can be fined for lighting up. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/103 "2003-02-23T17:26:41Z")
Note: the document linked to above at The Smoking Gun is the rider, which is a separate document from the contract that just lists everything the venue has to provide for the performance. The contract accepts and amends the rider as necessary. Thus, it is possible that pyro was mentioned in the contract, though I’m about 99.9% sure it wasn’t. FWIW, a story in the paper back home (Lexington, KY) said that when the band played AIA there a little while back, they did ask about the effects, and as they were forbidden by both the venue and city ordinanace, they didn’t use them. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/104 "2003-02-23T17:37:35Z")
I was a sound guy for several performance venues for several years. And it would be EASY for a band to slip stuff in and use it where I worked. I never had anything near the detailed list that Great White apparently provided, according to [thesmokinggun.com](http://thesmokinggun.com). I set up my gear, and sometimes wired it into some of theirs. After that, I was maybe 100 feet back from that stage at the sound board working on the mix. Unless something wasn’t working, I might not go near the stage again after the initial setup. Same thing with a lighting person, if the controls are distant from the stage, once the lights are aimed, your business at the stage is done. I would never have thought to root through every piece of gear brought in by the group. I just wouln’t imagine anyone stupid enough to set off stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/105 "2003-02-23T17:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Broomstick \* > \*\*When and where did that happen? \*\* Sorry, should have posted a [link to the thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=158774). Had a tought time searching because you need words that are larger than three letters so “sit on dry ice” wasn’t very effective. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/106 "2003-02-23T18:46:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Just saw the one of the owners of the bar give a statement in which he seemed to be weeping uncontrollably. > > > > Touching, except he had no tears and no runny nose. Reminded me a lot of Susan Smith. > > People said the same thing about the CEO of Canter, Fitzgerald. Oh, he’s not REALLY sorry that all his employees were burnt to crisps. He’s just faking. He’s enjoying the publicity. > > Honestly, I hope you never are involved in a tragedy because there are some people so cynical that they’ll believe the absolute worst about you without ever having met you and with no evidence at all to support their view. I saw the same clip, the guy (club owner) looked pretty damn sincere to me. He’s lost his business, his employees, possibly some friends or relatives, he’s part of the group being examined with criminal charges in mind, AND he’s going to get sued by somebody - probably a lot of somebodies - no matter what. Don’t know about you, but I’d sure as hell be crying. Just because people do dumb shit (like the band) or possibly overlook something (like maybe the club owner) doesn’t mean they don’t feel horrible when something like this happens. When Jack Russell was running off at the mouth saying “Sorry just don’t cut it” he’s absolutely correct - there is _no way_ to make this right, to fix what’s broken - but I don’t doubt the man is terribly, deeply, horribly regretting what happened. I don’t think there was any malicious intent here - _no one intended anyone to get hurt in any way_. Yes, even the guys who or might not have done something stupid. It still happened. People still died and were severely injured. Because life is a motherfucker sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![lauramarlane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a5b964/32.png) [@lauramarlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lauramarlane)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/107 "2003-02-23T18:52:43Z")
I was just listening to my local NPR station on my way into work and heard that there are still questions about whether the club exceeded capacity. It seems that the max allowed for that building was 300 and they might have had 350 or more in there. Sorry no cite–it was a breaking news report on the radio. I went to a concert at the Avalon in Boston last month and the people were jammed in so tight it was SRO and you could barely move. My mild claustrophobia kept me at the back of the room by the exit–in retrospect, probably a wise thing to do. Many venues I’ve been to do this. A change in the codes for clubs seems like a very good idea to me. What a horrible tragedy ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/108 "2003-02-23T19:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lauramarlane \* > \*\*A change in the codes for clubs seems like a very good idea to me. > \*\* Strict codes _do_ exist already. Enforcement is another issue. I’m located in an area that has some of the most strict codes in North America, but yesterday official were saying that with hundreds of clubs in the area, there just aren’t resources to regularly police them all. They will rush over and do a spot check if someone calls and reports something, but otherwise, they _try_ to do as many spot checks as is possible, but it’s really tough. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/109 "2003-02-23T19:04:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Broomstick \* > \*\*I don’t think there was any malicious intent here - _no one intended anyone to get hurt in any way_. Yes, even the guys who or might not have done something stupid. It still happened. People still died and were severely injured. Because life is a motherfucker sometimes. \*\* malicious intent is only one factor though. This was a totally preventable tragedy. Permits were required and not issued. if because the bar owner knew and didn’t apply or because the band didn’t tell him, is in conflict. however said permits are _required_ for reasons such as this. Yes, we’d like to assume that anyone using these devices is completely trained in the proper use, but it ain’t necessarily so. (it should be so, of course). And I suspect they wouldnt’ have been issued 'cause it’d have been _too dangerous_. the folks who set them off took risks, however, the risks they took endangered some one else’s lives. and that certainly can be a criminal matter. You can choose to risk your life, but if you’re going to risk others lives w/o their knowledge and consent, you can be held criminally responsible, even if you had no intent to harm other people. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/110 "2003-02-23T21:13:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > the folks who set them off took risks, however, the risks they took endangered some one else’s lives. and that certainly can be a criminal matter. You can choose to risk your life, but if you’re going to risk others lives w/o their knowledge and consent, you can be held criminally responsible, even if you had no intent to harm other people. I would agree with you if the pyro devices directly caused any injuries. Exiting and occupancy requirements take into account that people are in a panic. I would lean towards the band being responsible for the damage to the club, they did _start_ the fire. The lack of fire control, or suppressive measures, and the inability to safely exit the customers is the fault of the club. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/111 "2003-02-23T21:36:01Z")
IIRC, and it’s been posted here, the club passed it’s most recent (two months ago) fire inspection. it may have exceeded capacity by some 30/40 people. However, there were some 250 casualties (deaths/injuries). I’d suggest that it’s easy enough to see that the proximate cause of the casualties was not the exceeding capacity, but fire itself, fault lying with the person(s) who started the fire. As support for that, consider the case of the person who’s been found guilty of setting the COlorado fires from last summer - certainly her intent wasn’t to start a huge forest fire which had (IIRC ) fatalities, did considerable damage etc. She was held responsible for what happened after she caused a spark that started the fire. ---
**Author:** ![lauramarlane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a5b964/32.png) [@lauramarlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lauramarlane)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/112 "2003-02-23T21:45:18Z")
I know they didn’t exceed capacity by much–from what I’ve read, anyway. But I do think that it will be an issue in the investigation if only because the question has come up so many times. The general feeling I’ve gotten from the friends I’ve spoken with about this (especially the people from West Warwick) is that blame needs to be placed somewhere. Hopefully the investigation won’t take too long. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/113 "2003-02-23T21:57:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > \*\*I would agree with you if the pyro devices directly caused any injuries. Exiting and occupancy requirements take into account that people are in a panic. > > I would lean towards the band being responsible for the damage to the club, they did _start_ the fire. > > The lack of fire control, or suppressive measures, and the inability to safely exit the customers is the fault of the club. \*\* The building was up to code. They had what was required, though whether the code is sufficient is a whole 'nother question. In terms of criminal liability, it’s my WAG that the band’s manager will be in for many years in prison if there’s a finding that the house management knew nothing about the pyro stuff. Whoever actually set up the pyro gear is also in deep shit, whether licensed or not. As for civil liability, everybody involved on both sides will be bankrupt from legal expenses long before any victims get a penny. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/114 "2003-02-23T22:03:19Z")
Some insight [here](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/23/153446/542). The article’s on a community-moderated site, so might not be there after a few hours (say, after 11 EST tonight). But, a chance of that is slim. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/115 "2003-02-23T22:06:00Z")
Oops, you need to be a member (registration’s free) . Likely the story will get accepted, so I’ll post a public link later. ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/116 "2003-02-24T01:23:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\*People said the same thing about the CEO of Canter, Fitzgerald. Oh, he’s not REALLY sorry that all his employees were burnt to crisps. He’s just faking. He’s enjoying the publicity. > \*\* Having worked in the securities lawyer here in New York, I can assure you that the suspicions were based on the character of that man and the firm he operated. In the hagiographic bathos that followed 9/11, people kept their tongues, at least briefly. But pretty soon everyone remembered that he was (and, judging from his behavior since 9/11, remains) an asshole, and the firm he operated was, and remains, a snake pit, albeit one that missing a fang or two. Now as for our bar owner, I’m a lot more willing to believe that his grief is genuine. He was there that night, for one thing - he witnessed it, so that alone would be pretty damn horrifying. I wonder, did the manager survive? If so, that testimony’s going to be mighty interesting. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/117 "2003-02-24T06:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boyo Jim \* > The building was up to code. They had what was required, though whether the code is sufficient is a whole 'nother question. I was under the impression that there was some “grandfathering” due to an old building being used. So in a sense it was “approved” but only because the FD was not allowed to force an upgrade of the building due to its age. So it was not up to current code. Current code would have demanded adding sprinklers, probably forced the exits to be ramps rather than stairs to speed exiting. I would be curious if the club was “coded” as a bar or as a concert venue. People always look for the cheap way out on things like this and then blame the rest of the world when reality decides to cash that check for the shortcut. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/118 "2003-02-24T11:40:02Z")
As I said, whether the code is adequate is another question. The building _was_ up to current code, because the current code includes a grandfather clause. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/119 "2003-02-24T12:14:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eats\_Crayons \* > \*\*Educational buildings or school property can be weird and confusing as far as the laws go because the performance spaces aren’t always considered to be “performance spaces”. Your high school auditorium may have been officially a “lecture hall” etc… \*\* We didn’t have performances in the school auditorium, we had them in the Little Theater. It wasn’t anything but a theater, and couldn’t have possibly been thought of in any other way. It sat about 250 people in red theater seats, had a big red velvet curtain, etc… the auditorium on the other hand was… the auditorium. Like any school’s auditorium. I think it’s more likely that we just didn’t know it was illegal. [Minors smoking tobacco at all is also illegal, so we smoked ginseng cigarettes… man are those things foul]… ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611/120 "2003-02-24T13:05:19Z")
[Ty Longley](http://tylongley.com) (guitarist) has been identified among the dead ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/86-dead-and-counting-where-was-the-common-sense/156611.md?page=7)