# 9/11/2001 established "Dubya" as a leader. How? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656 "2005-08-26T00:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/81 "2005-08-30T05:26:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (1) There are few issues that get me as riled up as the Pet Goat thing. It just strikes me as GLARINGLY and DEFINITIVELY obvious proof (well, anecdotal proof) that, whatever Bush’s strengths as a president, he is NOT decisive and action-oriented. It’s worth reminding that when Bush first entered the elementary school classroom for the read-along, Flight 175 had **already** crashed into the WTC a minute earlier. When he is told three minutes later that a second airplane has smacked into the WTC, he’s _still_ sitting there (_cf:_ [9/11 timeline](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_timeline) courtesy of Wikipedia). Clueless dolt or cold-hearted bastard? How about “all of the above”? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/82 "2005-08-30T06:19:23Z")
Sorry, never learned how to sing kumbya properly. Personally I think Bush handled 9/11 and the following days pretty well all things considered. A hell of a lot better than I would have said he would prior to what happened. I didn’t find him incoherent, stuttering, drooling, etc. Quite the contrary. He came across (to me) as a regular guy in a fucked up situation, doing his best to reassure a shocked and stunned public…instead of as a slick politician. Sure, it was probably as much of an act as when Clinton was bullshitting me with that gleam in his eye…but it didn’t FEEL as slimy. It felt (at the time) more…I don’t know, real I suppose. YMMV of course. Face it folks…90% of you in this thread wouldn’t have been happy with Bush if he had spoken like the reincarnation of Roosevelt. I also find it ironic that some of you would trot out Churchill, but that’s another matter. Had Bush toss down the book he was reading to those kids and rushed out of the room (causing a panic) you’d be blasting him for that. Had he gone on TV immediately you’d be bustin on him for that. Had he made a big speech instead of a small one, you’d be on him for that. Had he flown straight to the White House you’d be chewing him for that…or for whatever other nitpicky bullshit you could chew on him for. Blah blah blah. About the only thing Bush could have done on that day to make some of you happy would have been to blow his brains out…and there are one or two of you here that probably would have criticized him for that as well. 😛 As I said, I think he did a decent job that day…and in the weeks that followed. I even think he (well, the administation) did a good job in Afghanistan. Everything after that was pure fuckup…but prior to that I was actually pleasantly surprised. Oh well…we now return you to the regularly scheduled Bush Bash of the Day. Kumbya everyone! -XT ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/83 "2005-08-30T08:11:30Z")
**xtisme** Well, since I started this thread, I am glad you have brought it back to the original topic. I’ll admit I’m one of the more notorious SDMB “Dubya-bashers”. It was not my intent to concentrate on what he did in the classroom the morning of Sept 11, 2001, nor his alleged “hiding out” later that day, and so on. Still, I have heard so many people say that Dubya acted very Presidential and authoritative that day and in the weeks following, I just wanted to know specifically what he did or said that was so memorable. This posting has gone well into its second page without anyone coming forward with _any_ example of Dubya taking charge. As a few people (including myself) have said, all he really did was “show up”. September 11, 2001 was the worst attack on our country, in our 200+ year history. So, looking back on that horrific day, what memorable quotes or actions by our Commander In Chief really stand out in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/84 "2005-08-30T09:15:59Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Yeah, but the problem is that there ain’t enough of them. Haven’t you heard that [the Taliban are back?](http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=77134) Yes I had heard that but whatyou **said** was: Originally Posted by rjung Except for that whole let’s-leave-after-four-months-and-forget-about-Osama-Bin-Whoever bit, yeah… So I made a comment, not detecting any lurking sarcasm at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/85 "2005-08-30T09:20:05Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > **xtisme** > September 11, 2001 was the worst attack on our country, in our 200+ year history. So, looking back on that horrific day, what memorable quotes or actions by our Commander In Chief really stand out in your mind? I sort of disagree with this statement. The Pearl Harbor attack was MUCH worse. Perhaps you meant the worst attack in our time rather than in our 200+ year history? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/86 "2005-08-30T10:12:48Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > I sort of disagree with this statement. The Pearl Harbor attack was MUCH worse. Perhaps you meant the worst attack in our time rather than in our 200+ year history? To be really picky, Hawaii wasn’t a state at the time although it was US territory. Pearl Harbor was a military attack and 9/11 was mass murder. Apples and oranges. Of course, if W had been president when Pearl Harbor happened, he probably would have declared war on Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/87 "2005-08-30T10:27:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > To be really picky, Hawaii wasn’t a state at the time although it was US territory. Pearl Harbor was a military attack and 9/11 was mass murder. Apples and oranges. Of course, if W had been president when Pearl Harbor happened, he probably would have declared war on Sweden. Agreed. I thought about HAwaii not being a state at the time right after I posted previously. As to 9/11 being a military attack, that’s pretty much open to interpretation. In order to attack your “enemies” you would use whatever you possibly could. Kind of hard to say that OBL doesn’t consider the U.S. as his enemies. The thing about W declaring war on Sweden was pretty funny though. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/88 "2005-08-30T12:50:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > About the only thing Bush could have done on that day to make some of you happy would have been to blow his brains out…and there are one or two of you here that probably would have criticized him for that as well. Surely you hyperbolize. But when it comes to cutting the President a little slack, the Conservative record isn’t exactly stellar, either. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/89 "2005-08-30T13:11:32Z")
I know this is fairly well-trod ground, but I am curious, **xtisme** , given your history for eventual rationality during discourse, can you really not think of any way that the President could have left the classroom without causing panic among the school children? Are school children given to panic simply because an important visitor has to leave in the midst of an activity? I suspect a reasonably functioning adult, especially one with a number of aides, could find a way to excuse himself from the room without causing problems for the children. Imagine, for example, that he was about to experience a horrific bout of diarrhea. Would you ask him to remain reading _The Pet Goat_ while shit runs down his leg and stinks up the room? Would he have to jump up and yell “Hey everyone! I’ve got the shits! PANIC NOW!”? Or is it possible that he could say, “Excuse me children, I have to step out of the room. Please enjoy the rest of the book, and thank you for allowing me to share in your activities today.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/90 "2005-08-30T13:24:23Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I know this is fairly well-trod ground, but I am curious, **xtisme** , given your history for eventual rationality during discourse, can you really not think of any way that the President could have left the classroom without causing panic among the school children? > > Are school children given to panic simply because an important visitor has to leave in the midst of an activity? > > I suspect a reasonably functioning adult, especially one with a number of aides, could find a way to excuse himself from the room without causing problems for the children. Imagine, for example, that he was about to experience a horrific bout of diarrhea. Would you ask him to remain reading _The Pet Goat_ while shit runs down his leg and stinks up the room? Would he have to jump up and yell “Hey everyone! I’ve got the shits! PANIC NOW!”? > > Or is it possible that he could say, “Excuse me children, I have to step out of the room. Please enjoy the rest of the book, and thank you for allowing me to share in your activities today.” You suddenly bring to mind an infamous episode with Daddy Bush and the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/91 "2005-08-30T18:04:09Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I know this is fairly well-trod ground, but I am curious, xtisme, given your history for eventual rationality during discourse, can you really not think of any way that the President could have left the classroom without causing panic among the school children? Oh, I’m sure I could think of ways he could leave without causing a panic…in retrospect. I think you and I discussed all this in one of the myriad timeline theads about 9/11 (IIRC…I think it was you, if not appologies). Personally I am neutral about this…I just don’t see it as a big deal. Certainly I don’t see it as a major screw up by the president that its made out to be in various threads. Going by the timeline of events there really wasn’t anything Bush could have done to make a jot of difference…and I’m uncertain really how much the protection aspect actually comes into play…i.e. where would he have been safer for those 5 min really? Moving or sitting tight? To me there are a lot more serious things to bust the President on than this, and I think the whole ‘goat book’ meme is…well, overblown. Just MHO of course. > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Are school children given to panic simply because an important visitor has to leave in the midst of an activity? You are assuming here that the sole (or even primary) audiance for Bush’s show of bravado (if thats what it was) was the children. I think that, assuming he actually was thinking it through and wasn’t just frozen like a rabbit, he had a wider audiance in mind…namely the American people. IMO he was trying to project ‘calm’ and ‘Presidential’ to the the citizens during a crisis. > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I suspect a reasonably functioning adult, especially one with a number of aides, could find a way to excuse himself from the room without causing problems for the children. Imagine, for example, that he was about to experience a horrific bout of diarrhea. Would you ask him to remain reading The Pet Goat while shit runs down his leg and stinks up the room? Would he have to jump up and yell “Hey everyone! I’ve got the shits! PANIC NOW!”? I suspect that a reasonably functional adult COULD do that…if they weren’t under stress. People do strange things under stress from my experience. Did Bush do the right thing? Maybe not. But considering how events were moving, myself I’m willing to cut him slack on this one as I don’t see the importance. I think that the ‘goat’ thing is just a snipe by the left…and personally, I don’t get it. The guy is a target rich environment…why harp on THIS thing? > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Or is it possible that he could say, “Excuse me children, I have to step out of the room. Please enjoy the rest of the book, and thank you for allowing me to share in your activities today.” Sure…but again, you are assuming that the children were his target audiance for his little show. In addition, you have plenty of time to think it through…he didn’t. He had to make a snap decision how best to project during the crisis. Again, was it the optimal decision? Maybe not. But it wasn’t a horrifically stupid decision either…certainly not on the order of how much its been discussed. YMMV though Hentor. 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/92 "2005-08-30T18:12:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Did Bush do the right thing? Maybe not. But considering how events were moving, myself I’m willing to cut him slack on this one as I don’t see the importance. That’s just it. I’m as much of a Bush-basher as anyone, **Reeder** included. And even I think that Bush’s Pet Goat is pretty much a non-issue. In retrospect, we can look back and pick apart how his performance could have stood improvement, but really, I think he handled himself just fine, considering the circumstances. We can all shout “He ain’t no Giulinani!”, but really, who is? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/93 "2005-08-30T18:13:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sorry, never learned how to sing kumbya properly. > About the only thing Bush could have done on that day to make some of you happy would have been to blow his brains out…and there are one or two of you here that probably would have criticized him for that as well. 😛 And who’d have to clean that shit up? That’s right, the working class housekeeping staff. I swear, Bush can’t do anything without fucking over the poor and middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/94 "2005-08-30T18:20:59Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That’s just it. I’m as much of a Bush-basher as anyone, **Reeder** included. And even I think that Bush’s Pet Goat is pretty much a non-issue. And I don’t. I think it is an unvarnished insight into the true character of the man. At the moment of greatest crisis of my lifetime, how did my President respond? This is not a non-issue. Clearly we differ on that. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/95 "2005-08-30T18:57:21Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That’s just it. I’m as much of a Bush-basher as anyone, **Reeder** included. And even I think that Bush’s Pet Goat is pretty much a non-issue. In retrospect, we can look back and pick apart how his performance could have stood improvement, but really, I think he handled himself just fine, considering the circumstances. We can all shout “He ain’t no Giulinani!”, but really, who is? As long as we are in the Pit. Giulinani for President in 2008. With your supplied rallying cry: > [@](#): > > We can all shout “He ain’t no Giulinani!”, but really, who is? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/96 "2005-08-30T19:10:16Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > And who’d have to clean that shit up? Exactly. 😛 > [@tdn](#): > > We can all shout “He ain’t no Giulinani!”, but really, who is? Certainly not Bush, thats for sure. 😉 > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Clearly we differ on that. And thats what makes the board such an interesting place, ehe? -XT ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/97 "2005-08-30T19:32:25Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Clearly we differ on that. This is America. We’re allowed to disagree. I sometimes think we expect too much of our presidents. We expect them to be more machine than man sometimes. Personally, I won’t begrudge Bush a moment or three of shock when the shit hits the fan. It’s a human reaction. Starting an illegal war 18 months later in an unrelated country ain’t, of course. That’s inexcusable. But I remember my reaction on 9/11. By the time I turned on the TV, both towers had already been hit. My first reaction was “Meh, this show sucks.” I turned over to the Game Show Network. It was several minutes before I said to myself “Hey, maybe I should watch that. It looked important.” Even then, it was a good hour before I could convince myself that what I saw on the TV was real. It was beyond my comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/98 "2005-08-30T20:15:34Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > But **Turek** mentioned that people were complaining of Bush’s gas use in _this_ thread. It’s a little disingenuous to post a link to a different thread where almost no one complained about the gas use in the first place. I didn’t get that impression. He sounded like he was fed up with the Bash-Bush-At-Any-Price-For-Any-Reason Brigade in general, and I don’t blame him in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/99 "2005-08-30T20:25:11Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I didn’t get that impression. He sounded like he was fed up with the Bash-Bush-At-Any-Price-For-Any-Reason Brigade in general, and I don’t blame him in the slightest. Then he should have cited something where people were bashing Bush. His example was a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/100 "2005-08-30T22:30:41Z")
I think there was another thread recently that was talking about the cost of gas in the presidential vehicles (not just about Bush BTW)…I figured it was an oblique reference to that. If I have time later I’ll dig up that thread if you are that interested in it tdn. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656.md?page=6)