# 9/11/2001 established "Dubya" as a leader. How? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656 "2005-08-26T00:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/101 "2005-08-30T22:38:02Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Then he should have cited something where people were bashing Bush. His example was a strawman. Word of advice, when addressing **Clothahump** , you might want to cut down on all those complicated multisyllabic words. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/102 "2005-08-31T00:36:47Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I think there was another thread recently that was talking about the cost of gas in the presidential vehicles (not just about Bush BTW)…I figured it was an oblique reference to that. If I have time later I’ll dig up that thread if you are that interested in it tdn. Oh, I was aware of that thread. But even in that, not too many people were taking thoughtless potshots at Bush. Not that I saw, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/103 "2005-08-31T01:55:43Z")
I really don’t think we (the Dubya-bashing sector of the SDMB) take _every_ opportunity to bash “Dubya”. I think the thread about gas-guzzling “Dubya” proved that. So, now that this thread has reached its third page, there’s hasn’t been one reply that showed “Dubya” being decisive, authoritative or inspiring in the days, weeks or even _years_ after Sept 11, 2001. My God, a few days after that horrible day, don’t you think Dubya Bush could _at least_ have had someone write a great speech to rally the people? Instead what have we heard? “Bring it on.” OR “You can run but you can’t hide.” (about Osama Bin Laden who’s has been running _and_ hiding for 4 years now.) So, as I’ve said on every page of this thread, if you want to call me a “Dubya basher” - fine. But the thing that would _really_ put me in my place is countering my assertions with some great action or speech made by Dubya that truly rallied the people. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/104 "2005-08-31T03:55:13Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Inconceivable? **Inconceivable?!?!?** The CIA knew TWO FULL YEARS BEFORE 9/11 that it was one of Al Queda’s plans! [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/18/attack/main509488.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/18/attack/main509488.shtml) Hell, Tom Clancy thought it up before that. [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425147584/103-6219013-1395810?v=glance](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425147584/103-6219013-1395810?v=glance) xploder, how was Pearl Harbor worse? 9/11 killed more people. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/105 "2005-08-31T07:43:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Hell, Tom Clancy thought it up before that. > > [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425147584/103-6219013-1395810?v=glance](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425147584/103-6219013-1395810?v=glance) > > xploder, how was Pearl Harbor worse? 9/11 killed more people. Kudos on the Tom Clancy reference. I guess it depends on how you look at it. On 9/11 we lost more people but at Pearl Harbor, of ninety-six ships present that morning, eighteen were sunk or severely damaged including nine battleships. Of 394 army, navy and marine aircraft on the island, 188 were destroyed, another 159 damaged. Over 2300 military personnel died, 2008 of whom were sailors. Being that this was almost the complete Pacific war fleet, and it was mostly destroyed, I can arguably say that Pearl Harbor was worse. Especially when we subsequently lost Wake Island, Guam, Singapore, the East Indies, the Phillipines and other Pacific bases at the START (for us) of a global war. While the casualties on 9/11 were horrific, and I never meant to intimate that they weren’t, the debacle at Pearl Harbor could have quickly lost us the war in the Pacific. One reason it didn’t was because all our carriers were out to sea when it happened. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/106 "2005-08-31T12:12:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Hell, Tom Clancy thought it up before that. > > [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425147584/103-6219013-1395810?v=glance](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425147584/103-6219013-1395810?v=glance) > > xploder, how was Pearl Harbor worse? 9/11 killed more people. Also, in Arthur C. Clarke’s book _The Trigger Effect_ (co-authored with someone whose name I can’t remember), hijacking and crashing an airliner is given as a possible plan of violent extremists. Inconceivable, it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/107 "2005-08-31T12:39:56Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > Kudos on the Tom Clancy reference. > > I guess it depends on how you look at it. On 9/11 we lost more people but at Pearl Harbor, of ninety-six ships present that morning, eighteen were sunk or severely damaged including nine battleships. Of 394 army, navy and marine aircraft on the island, 188 were destroyed, another 159 damaged. > > Over 2300 military personnel died, 2008 of whom were sailors. > > Being that this was almost the complete Pacific war fleet, and it was mostly destroyed, I can arguably say that Pearl Harbor was worse. Especially when we subsequently lost Wake Island, Guam, Singapore, the East Indies, the Phillipines and other Pacific bases at the START (for us) of a global war. > > While the casualties on 9/11 were horrific, and I never meant to intimate that they weren’t, the debacle at Pearl Harbor could have quickly lost us the war in the Pacific. One reason it didn’t was because all our carriers were out to sea when it happened. Much of what you say about Pearl Harbor is not true. We would not have lost the war even if we loast the carriers, it would have been much longer however and with much greater loss of life so you are probably correct that Pearl was probably worse than 9/11. Please see [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332475](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332475) starting at about post 10 for detailed debate on the effects of Pearl Harbor attack and the Carriers. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/108 "2005-08-31T15:13:28Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Word of advice, when addressing **Clothahump** , you might want to cut down on all those complicated multisyllabic words. Word of advice, **Cervaise** : when addressing me or speaking about me, try to have something intelligent to say instead of ignorant, childish bullshit like that. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/109 "2005-08-31T16:29:21Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Much of what you say about Pearl Harbor is not true. We would not have lost the war even if we loast the carriers, it would have been much longer however and with much greater loss of life so you are probably correct that Pearl was probably worse than 9/11. Please see [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332475](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332475) starting at about post 10 for detailed debate on the effects of Pearl Harbor attack and the Carriers. What I actually said was: > [@](#): > > While the casualties on 9/11 were horrific, and I never meant to intimate that they weren’t, the debacle at Pearl Harbor could have quickly lost us the **war in the Pacific**. Note the bolded part. I didn’t mean to imply that we would have lost all of WWII just from that one attack. My apologies if I wasn’t clear enough. Now off to read that thread… ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/110 "2005-08-31T17:25:52Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sorry, never learned how to sing kumbya properly. Huh? What do you mean, precisely? > [@](#): > > He came across (to me) as a regular guy in a fucked up situation, A reasonable analysis. But is that what we WANT? Should we attempt to elect, as president, the most average and regular American? Or should we attempt to elect someone who is stronger and smarter and better and purer and more righteous than most of us? > [@](#): > > doing his best to reassure a stunned public Are you still talking about the classroom here? Because the public had NO IDEA WHAT HE WAS DOING AT THE MOMENT. He was not being broadcast live on national TV, projecting calm, reassuring people, calming unrest. He was in an elementary school classroom! > [@](#): > > Face it folks…90% of you in this thread wouldn’t have been happy with Bush if he had spoken like the reincarnation of Roosevelt. This concept, “it doesn’t matter what Bush does, you all will criticize him no matter what” pisses me off SO MUCH because it SO EASILY PROVEN FALSE. The easiest example being to compare the reactions to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Heck, just read all the posts in this thread, and see how many of them say something like mine did, which is “some things he did OK, some things not so OK”. Yes, a lot of poeple really don’t like Bush. Yes, that dislike sometimes crosses the border into irrationality. But that doesn’t mean that we just unthinkingly auto-criticize everything he does. Heck, someone brought up the recent thread about how much gas Bush’s SUV caravan uses, and there were TONS of people who posted “I hate Bush as much as the next guy, and I think this is a non-issue”. > [@](#): > > Had Bush toss down the book he was reading to those kids and rushed out of the room (causing a panic) you’d be blasting him for that. Balderdash! Tommyrot! Do you think any would have cared if Bush had alarmed some schoolchildren (and NOT caused a national panic because there were no live national cameras on him), given that those schoolchildren would, about half an hour later, learn about 9/11? This is perhaps the single most ridiculous claim I’ve ever heard multiple SDMBers repeatedly make. I find it so laughable that I wrote an entire [parody](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=271515) about it, which no one got. And yes, I agree that this whole Pet Goat issue really isn’t that big a deal. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to let total BS arguments about it slide by. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/111 "2005-08-31T18:14:09Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > A reasonable analysis. But is that what we WANT? Should we attempt to elect, as president, the most average and regular American? The headline “President Simpson Wins Superbowl” explodes my bowels in terror… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656/112 "2005-08-31T18:23:34Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > The headline “President Simpson Wins Superbowl” explodes my bowels in terror… > > -Joe But Lisa would make a good President, she just has to watch out for Nepotism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-2001-established-dubya-as-a-leader-how/318656.md?page=5)