# 9/11 Challenge **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912 "2009-07-22T21:34:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/41 "2009-09-15T18:20:23Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > … the distance of some of the debris supporting in-flight break-up (which could have happened anyway given large control inputs at Vne during the cockpit struggle, true) There’s a lot of misinformation out there. The debris found at any significant distance from the crash site was only very lightweight stuff from inside the plane, like papers or fabrics, and it was found downwind from the crash site and not in a location the plane had flown over. There was no airframe stuff found farther than a couple hundred yards, and that was a big engine chunk that ended up downrange. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/42 "2009-09-15T18:28:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > i am sure nobody would think 2 huge bldgs would collapse to the ground after getting bumped into by airplanes. Bumped in to? Have you seen the videos? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/43 "2009-09-15T19:16:48Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > That’s NOT what the document says. My complaint here was that the PNAC document never said they _wanted_ a new Pearl Harbor, it just described the pace of technology in defense as being slow unless there was some catastrophic event. It did not even _hint_ that they _wanted_ a new Pearl Harbor. Point taken. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/44 "2009-09-15T19:24:49Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Yes, with regard to 9/11 and our resulting involvement in the Middle East, it is conjecture. WTF do I know? > > But given our well-documented imperialist record abroad coupled with obvious lies at home to make it fly politically, I think it’s a good one. > > Oh, I don’t know. Maybe we really are there to end terrorism and bring peace, prosperity and democracy to an oppressed people and oil, arms and drugs have nothing to do with it. So your theory is that in order to justify invading Iraq they faked a terrorist attack by Saudis (who are Bush and Cheney’s friends) led by a Saudi based in Afghanistan and forgot to include any Iraqis in the plot? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/45 "2009-09-15T20:17:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And finally, it’s just unnecessary. What happened to the WTC is a perfectly plausible result of ramming such planes into them. Well, that, and the fact it would be unnecessary. Does anyone really think that, had the towers not fallen, the public response would have been, “Well, sure we’re all pissed off and stuff, but it’s not like the towers fell or anything. I think we should give the bad guys a pass on this one. Now, if them towers fell, well, that’d be totally different.” -Joe ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/46 "2009-09-15T21:01:51Z")
Yeah, I think if the towers had not fallen, it would have been about as traumatic to the American psyche. Those poor folks stuck in the top section of the North Tower would have slowly died, many more would have jumped. A lot of people who instead died in the lower sections would have made it out alive, but on the other hand, we’d have two crippled towers standing as a reminder for months, and no one would have been able to get within two blocks of them. I don’t see much difference from a terror standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/47 "2009-09-15T21:17:34Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > So your theory is that in order to justify invading Iraq they faked a terrorist attack by Saudis (who are Bush and Cheney’s friends) led by a Saudi based in Afghanistan and forgot to include any Iraqis in the plot? Deucedly clever, Bush and Cheney are. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/48 "2009-09-15T21:40:39Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > So your theory is that in order to justify invading Iraq they faked a terrorist attack by Saudis (who are Bush and Cheney’s friends) led by a Saudi based in Afghanistan and forgot to include any Iraqis in the plot? Oh they weren’t forgotten. Or did our prez err in the months before the war in Iraq when he claimed to know of ties between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/49 "2009-09-15T21:55:52Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Bumped in to? Have you seen the videos? There are videos? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/50 "2009-09-15T22:03:37Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Oh they weren’t forgotten. Or did our prez err in the months before the war in Iraq when he claimed to know of ties between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein? Wouldn’t have been a whole lot simpler to put some, oh, I dunno, Iraqi citizens on the planes?! Seriously, the whole idea of a setup falls apart as soon as you look at it. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/51 "2009-09-15T22:27:51Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Wouldn’t have been a whole lot simpler to put some, oh, I dunno, Iraqi citizens on the planes?! Seriously, the whole idea of a setup falls apart as soon as you look at it. Look. I have never said except as a joke in my previous post that Iraq was involved in a setup or even that OBL was. It is simply my contention that, however 9/11 came down, it suited the administration very well. There were many reasons for going into Afghanistan pre-9/11, oil pipelines among them and 9/11 was our excuse. We didn’t need al Qaeda to justify our little adventure in Iraq, we had WMD. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/52 "2009-09-15T22:55:06Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > We didn’t need al Qaeda to justify our little adventure in Iraq, we had WMD. Not meaning to pick on you, but I’ve never understood this logic for the Iraq war. There were plenty of countries with WMD in 2003, and plenty of “rogue” countries with WMD (E.g. Syria, Libya, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan if we stretch the definition of rogue). This leaves out large countries with WMD that also behave about as abominably as Saddam’s regime: Russia with its conduct of both Chechen Wars; China’s invasions of Vietnam and Tibet; and Israel if you feel like exaggerating their actions against the Palestinians. We aren’t invading any of these countries to prevent proliferation, at least God I hope not. Moreover, isn’t invasion and regime change the last thing you want to do to a dictator with WMDs? I mean, if he’s going to die anyway, along with his evil spawn, then why wouldn’t he use the WMDs to take as many of us down with him as possible, a la MAD? (This is different than preventing a dictator from acquiring WMDs in the first place, e.g. Osirak raid of 1981. In that case, Saddam couldn’t retaliate effectively.) But when the dictator already has them, and your aim is to remove him, and we evidently don’t do the Marcos/Duvalier personal getaway jet to Swiss/Hawaiian exile thing anymore, why push him into a corner where he has to use them? So I never thought the WMD motive made a whole lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/53 "2009-09-15T23:05:18Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > … > So I never thought the WMD motive made a whole lot of sense. Must I really explain that WMD is shorthand for Bush’s lies? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/54 "2009-09-16T02:49:48Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > There were many reasons for going into Afghanistan pre-9/11, oil pipelines among them and 9/11 was our excuse. Oil pipelines and Afghanistan don’t make any sense. We did this is the previous round of 9/11 threads and it’s pretty clear that no one would go into Afghanistan to get oil via a pipeline. It didn’t make any sense before the war, it didn’t make sense when the USSR went in, it doesn’t make sense now. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/55 "2009-09-16T03:03:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Oil pipelines and Afghanistan don’t make any sense. We did this is the previous round of 9/11 threads and it’s pretty clear that no one would go into Afghanistan to get oil via a pipeline. It didn’t make any sense before the war, it didn’t make sense when the USSR went in, it doesn’t make sense now. [Yawn.](http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/sardi7.html) > [@](#): > > On February 12, 1998, John J. Maresca, vice president, international relations for UNOCAL oil company, testified before the US House of Representatives, Committee on International Relations. Maresca provided information to Congress on Central Asia oil and gas reserves and how they might shape US foreign policy. UNOCAL’s problem? As Maresca said: “How to get the region’s vast energy resources to the markets.” The oil reserves are in areas north of Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Russia. Routes for a pipeline were proposed that would transport oil on a 42-inch pipe southward thru Afghanistan for 1040 miles to the Pakistan coast. Such a pipeline would cost about $2.5 billion and carry about 1 million barrels of oil per day. > > Maresca told Congress then that: “It’s not going to be built until there is a single Afghan government. That’s the simple answer.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/56 "2009-09-16T03:08:12Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Must I really explain that WMD is shorthand for Bush’s lies? Pssst! Use one of the smilies to show you’re being sarcastic. In a world where all sorts of people believe all sorts of nonsense this would tell us you’re not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/57 "2009-09-16T03:13:48Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Pssst! Use one of the smilies to show you’re being sarcastic. In a world where all sorts of people believe all sorts of nonsense this would tell us you’re not one of them. Irony _is_ often wasted here. I’ll try to do better.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/58 "2009-09-16T03:37:24Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > [Yawn.](http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/sardi7.html) Yes, and it still doesn’t make any sense. It would never have gotten built. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/59 "2009-09-16T10:01:14Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > [Yawn.](http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/sardi7.html) I couldn’t find such testimony in the Congressional Record. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912/60 "2009-09-16T10:23:07Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > It was not necessary for the these agencies to pool their info and then ignore it. All it took to ignore it was a willing executive. They didn’t cry “Foul” and accuse a popular wartime President of treason or at least stupidity? Much easier and a better career move to play stupid themselves. However, we already know that this did not happen. We have the testimony of the FBI agent who was turned down when she asked that the reports on flight training be moved higher on the ladder. We have the reports from the guys who recovered the laptop in the Philipines that they or their boss did not find the plans credible and so never passed the information higher. All across the board we have the testimony of agents and lower level analysts that the information never made it higher than scattered departments–unless you want to assert that they are all in on the conspiracy. The incompetence of GWB or his immediate staff is a separate issue regarding the pursuit of information, but that does not make the matter one of conspiracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-challenge/503912.md?page=4)