# 9/11 Conspiracy Theories! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948 "2006-03-26T10:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/242 "2006-04-06T06:47:27Z")
> [@](#): > > bigpappadiaz: Gee you sure made a lot of points that seem to make sense, and while that crap doesn’t work on me, I’m afraid it might on all these other fragile minds reading that list. I’m smarter than that, but other people aren’t as smart as me. Interesting. So, basically, you’re admitting you don’t have any responses. [Here’s the list again](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7268133&postcount=186). Care to give it a shot? It’s the least you can do, you know, to keep the fragile minds not so smart as you from being fooled. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/243 "2006-04-06T13:30:44Z")
Not sure if anyone brought this up, but the logistics of planting explosives in the WTC strains reality. I lived near Wall Street and have an investment banker wife. Trust me, this is a 24 hour a day job. There was likely NEVER a time when there weren’t people working in the WTC. Putting all those explosives in without people noticing would have been, well, I don’t want to say impossible, but very improbable. ---
**Author:** ![Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8797f3/32.png) [@Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ins_Outs_What-have-yous)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/244 "2006-04-06T13:36:59Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Not sure if anyone brought this up, but the logistics of planting explosives in the WTC strains reality. I lived near Wall Street and have an investment banker wife. Trust me, this is a 24 hour a day job. There was likely NEVER a time when there weren’t people working in the WTC. Putting all those explosives in without people noticing would have been, well, I don’t want to say impossible, but very improbable. The CT I know thinks Marvin Bush, Dubya’s brother, orchestrated the planting of explosives during times when sections of the building were closed off for maintenance…or something along those lines. It sounds stupid but that’s how the CTs think it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/245 "2006-04-06T13:49:35Z")
> [@ArchitectChore](#): > > The CT I know thinks Marvin Bush, Dubya’s brother, orchestrated the planting of explosives during times when sections of the building were closed off for maintenance…or something along those lines. It sounds stupid but that’s how the CTs think it’s possible. I’m no expert on controlled demolitions. Can someone with more knowledge give me an estimate on the number of man hours it would take to put together a controlled demolition of these buildings safely and reliably (not to mention inconspicuously)? I’m assuming that it would require more than Jack Bauer going into the WTC with a pen knife and a satchel of explosives during a commercial break. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/246 "2006-04-06T13:57:35Z")
For intentional demolitions, my understanding is that they have to remove a lot of walls to get access to the load-bearing pieces they need, then it takes a lot of heavy drilling to place the explosives. Normally they place the charges a few ounces at a time, so simply stating that they would have to backpack in 4000 pounds of explosives misses the bigger point that they have to do a lot of work to place every few-ounce charge in the right place and wire it up. Of course, this is for the concrete buildings I’ve read about, and I don’t know how it might be different for a steel one. ---
**Author:** ![the\_only\_bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b2d939/32.png) [@the\_only\_bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_only_bunny)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/247 "2006-04-06T16:42:36Z")
This board says its about fighting ignorance. And this time it worked. I have a friend who is into the whole “The government planned it” idea of conspiracy. She has given me most of the theories printed here. I was almost starting to think there was something to it, til I read this thread. Now I am less ignorant, and I want to thank everyone in this thread who proved their point. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/248 "2006-04-06T18:08:38Z")
> [@the only bunny](#): > > I was almost starting to think there was something to it, til I read this thread. Now I am less ignorant, and I want to thank everyone in this thread who proved their point. Bless you! That’s one down, 5,999,999,999 to go! (It’s taking longer than we thought.) Now, send your friend over here. ---
**Author:** ![bigpappadiaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bigpappadiaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigpappadiaz)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/249 "2006-04-06T18:15:35Z")
For the attacks on whether molten steel was found or not, it was: [Molten steel from the rubbel picture](http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/moltensteel.jpg) [Video of the guys cleaning up the debris. The observer notes that the observed surface of this metal is still reddish-orange some six weeks after 9-11.](http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/red_hot_ground_zero_low_quality.wmv) [About a quarter of the way down you see the now-solidified steel/iron with all sorts of stuff entrained in it](http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html) Who was it that told me they didn’t find this stuff? [Melted steel pouring from the south tower right before it collapsed.](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9%2F11) This had to have been WAY WAY WAY above the temperature that that jet fuel was probably burning at. > [@](#): > > Early news reports had indicated that a high pressure, 24-inch gas main was located in the vicinity of the building [WTC 7]; however, this proved not to be true." (FEMA, 2002, chapter 5; emphasis added.) Who said there was a gas main? > [@](#): > > **Both WTC 1 and WTC 2 were stable after the aircraft impact, standing for 102 min and 56 min, respectively.** The global analyses with structural impact damage showed that **both towers had considerable reserve capacity.** This was confirmed by analysis of the post-impact vibration of WTC 2… where the damaged tower oscillated at a period nearly equal to the first mode period calculated for the undamaged structure. (NIST, 2005, p. 144; emphasis added.) > > At any given location, the duration of [air, not steel] temperatures near 1,000oC was about 15 min to 20 min. The rest of the time, the calculated temperatures were near 500oC or below.” (NIST, 2005, p. 127, emphasis added.) > > NIST contracted with Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. to conduct tests to obtain information on the fire endurance of trusses like those in the WTC towers… All four test specimens sustained the maximum design load for approximately 2 hours without collapsing.” (NIST, 2005, p. 140, emphasis added.) The NIST team fairly admits that their report “does not actually include the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached.” (NIST, 2005, p. 80, fn. 1; emphasis added.) Metals expert Dr. Frank Gayle (working with NIST) stated: > [@](#): > > Your gut reaction would be the jet fuel is what made the fire so very intense, a lot of people figured that’s what melted the steel. Indeed it did not, the steel did not melt. You think the jet fuel was roaring away from tens of minutes? “The initial jet fuel fires themselves lasted at most a few minutes” and office material fires would burn out within about 20 minutes in a given location. (NIST, 2005; p. 179) Oh look! I think I see the needle at the top of the tower duck down before the surrounding building, indicating the core collapsed first. What the hell? [http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/videos/wtc1\_close\_frames.html](http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/videos/wtc1_close_frames.html) Frame 6, 7, and 8 show it. Somebody blew it out, and pulled the building. ---
**Author:** ![bigpappadiaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bigpappadiaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigpappadiaz)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/250 "2006-04-06T18:26:07Z")
Oh my goodness! Did they find sulfur in some of the recovered steel? I guess they weren’t able to ship it all out fast enough… [http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/index.html](http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/index.html) Iron sulfide… hmmm, now what uses sulfur as an accelerant? Military thermite! > [@](#): > > This board says its about fighting ignorance. And this time it worked. > I have a friend who is into the whole “The government planned it” idea of conspiracy. She has given me most of the theories printed here. I was almost starting to think there was something to it, til I read this thread. Now I am less ignorant, and I want to thank everyone in this thread who proved their point. Your friend sounds like a smart gal. But you’re going to use a thread on the straightdope as proof that this conspiracy didn’t take place, when there are so many other groups out there with physicists and metallurgists and websites with much more compelling arguements and are much more qualified than I? Yeah right, I’m sure. Who do you work for? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/251 "2006-04-06T18:55:19Z")
> [@bigpappadiaz](#): > > [Melted steel pouring from the south tower right before it collapsed.](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9%2F11) This had to have been WAY WAY WAY above the temperature that that jet fuel was probably burning at. > … > Oh look! I think I see the needle at the top of the tower duck down before the surrounding building, indicating the core collapsed first. What the hell? > [9-11 Research: North Tower Collapse Video Frames](http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/videos/wtc1_close_frames.html) > Frame 6, 7, and 8 show it. Somebody blew it out, and pulled the building. Several points: Where is the evidence that the material shown is “molten steel”? There are any number of things that would burn or glow when burning. (And the material that is falling is the same orange color as the flames in the background, not the green color of molten steel I poured in my days as a foundry worker.) Of course the core collapsed first. That has been the conclusion of every investigation. In fact, trying to make a point that there was “molten steel” at the edges of the building is irrelevant even if it were true. The buildings were constructed as layers supported by the core. The outer walls were “curtains” that were “hung” from the flooring extending out from the core using technology that was first employed in the early 1950s. The only support provided by the outer walls was that of rigidity needed to resist winds. The outer walls did not provide the actual vertical support for the buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/252 "2006-04-06T19:09:08Z")
> [@bigpappadiaz](#): > > [Molten steel from the rubbel picture](http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/Bigpappadiaz/moltensteel.jpg) That’s a picture of a backhoe with some orange stuff in it. How do we know what it is or where it’s from? > [@](#): > > _[Video of the guys cleaning up the debris. The observer notes that the observed surface of this metal is still reddish-orange some six weeks after 9-11.](http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/red_hot_ground_zero_low_quality.wmv)_ Observers have been known to be wrong. If there observer had pointed out some reddish-orange metal for us you’d have something. > [@](#): > > _[About a quarter of the way down you see the now-solidified steel/iron with all sorts of stuff entrained in it](http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html) > Who was it that told me they didn’t find this stuff?_ Looks like a bunch of rust to me. Where’s the XEDS anaylsis? > [@](#): > > _[Melted steel pouring from the south tower right before it collapsed.](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9%2F11) This had to have been WAY WAY WAY above the temperature that that jet fuel was probably burning at._ As **tom** pointed out, that could be _anything_. How do you know it isn’t plastic, foam rubber, fiberglass? > [@](#): > > _Oh look! I think I see the needle at the top of the tower duck down before the surrounding building, indicating the core collapsed first. What the hell? > [9-11 Research: North Tower Collapse Video Frames](http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/videos/wtc1_close_frames.html) > Frame 6, 7, and 8 show it. Somebody blew it out, and pulled the building._ Look closer. There is a slight difference in the roofline in 5, 6, and 7. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/253 "2006-04-06T19:09:24Z")
I would also note that Professor Jones, on whose claims most of your recent post relies, has been challenged, not by the government, but by his own university (note the charge of selective quoting): > [@](#): > > Some critics have claimed that Jones’ analysis is similar to that of other researchers which they have disputed in the past, including claims regarding photographic evidence of demolition charges, the claim that no major persistent fires were visible at WTC7, and what they contend are quotes selective edited from Bill Manning [4]and Stephen Gregory. > > A few department chairmen at Jones’s university have issued critical statements, though none of these has yet addressed any of the points which Jones made in his paper and at his presentation at BYU. Chairman of the BYU department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record stating in an e-mail, “I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don’t think there is accuracy and validity to these claims”. > > The BYU physics department has also issued a statement: “The university is aware that Professor Steven Jones’s hypotheses and interpretations of evidence regarding the collapse of World Trade Center buildings are being questioned by a number of scholars and practitioners, including many of BYU’s own faculty members. Professor Jones’s department and college administrators are not convinced that his analyses and hypotheses have been submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review.”[5] The College of Engineering and Technology department has also added, “The structural engineering faculty in the Fulton College of Engineering and Technology do not support the hypotheses of Professor Jones.” [6] [source, Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones#Critics) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/254 "2006-04-06T19:23:02Z")
One more point: I have now reviewed all the links and I find no evidence of “molten” steel–which, as already noted, is irrelevant since there is no claim that the steel “melted” resulting in the collapses. The claims have all been that the steel was weakened and was unable to hold its shape or rigidity. Finding glowing metal (even steel) several weeks after having been placed in the “banked oven” of the rubble should not be a surprise to anyone and does not provide any challenge to the description of the buildings’ collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/255 "2006-04-06T19:30:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > One more point: I have now reviewed all the links and I find no evidence of “molten” steel–which, as already noted, is irrelevant since there is no claim that the steel “melted” resulting in the collapses. The claims have all been that the steel was weakened and was unable to hold its shape or rigidity. Finding glowing metal (even steel) several weeks after having been placed in the “banked oven” of the rubble should not be a surprise to anyone and does not provide any challenge to the description of the buildings’ collapse. And pools of molten steel should be pale yellow/white (basically the color of straw), not orange. ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/256 "2006-04-06T19:36:34Z")
Sorry, I was away for a while with other business. You know, in all my efforts to explain to people what is going on this country, it really is like trying to convert someone away from a religious belief…they defend their beliefs with equal ferocity. It is no different on this forum with those of you who believe that you have been “Fighting Ignorance Since 1973”. In trying to show you even the most basic misperceptions you all here seem to have, it is like trying to explain evolution to a young-earth creationist. “Show me the evidence! The bible/the government/my expert says it isn’t so, and you’ll never have enough evidence to prove it to me!” I guess the only way you find truth is to be willing to face things that are personally painful, that result in cognitive dissonance or are even personally embarrasing. I’ve had to do that on many occasions in my life, including on the issue of 9/11. I suppose you still believe that Timothy McVeigh, the lone individual, parked his Ryder truck beside the A.P. Murrah building in OKC, and this is all that brought the building down. Why should you have to bother with silly thinks like facts about what happened that day from the local news media? After all, the mainstream national media’s reconstruction of events is much more comforting. Surely, the government would not LIE to us. Surely, there are is no such thing as government CONSPIRACY to commit MASS MURDER by planting bombs in buildings except in the minds of crazy people, right? [http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc.ram](http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc.ram) [http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc2.ram](http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc2.ram) :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/257 "2006-04-06T19:46:32Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > You know, in all my efforts to explain to people what is going on this country, it really is like trying to convert someone away from a religious belief…they defend their beliefs with equal ferocity. It is no different on this forum with those of you who believe that you have been “Fighting Ignorance Since 1973”. In trying to show you even the most basic misperceptions you all here seem to have, it is like trying to explain evolution to a young-earth creationist. “Show me the evidence! The bible/the government/my expert says it isn’t so, and you’ll never have enough evidence to prove it to me!” Why hello Mr. Pot. Nice to meet you. > [@](#): > > _I suppose you still believe that Timothy McVeigh, the lone individual, parked his Ryder truck beside the A.P. Murrah building in OKC, and this is all that brought the building down._ Why wouldn’t it be? Fertilizer is [a very powerful explosive by itself](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster), let alone with the addition of nitromethane. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/258 "2006-04-06T20:14:25Z")
I’m investing in Alcoa. Aluminum is going to become very scarce 'round these parts. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/259 "2006-04-06T20:26:03Z")
Me, I’m now stuck on the radio frequency super Detenator. Other’s may know better and will correct me but wouldn’t that be a stupid way to set off the explosives if they planed to hit the buildings with planes first? I mean because of teh commottion the area would become a radio frequency hot zone wouldn’t it? The entire band width would be flooded with every cell phone and different emegerency vehicel radios (Ambulance, Fire and Police an the different depts) and personal radios of the emergancy personel themselves. Not to mention all those Television and radio trucks trying to beam out the live images and sounds including asscoitated radio calls between stations and the mobile reporters and crew. Isn’t there a risk that all of that activity could have accidentally stumbled on the magic radio frequency that would have tripped off one of the many layers of explosives? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/260 "2006-04-06T20:29:32Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Sorry, I was away for a while with other business. > > You know, in all my efforts to explain to people what is going on this country, it really is like trying to convert someone away from a religious belief…they defend their beliefs with equal ferocity. It is no different on this forum with those of you who believe that you have been “Fighting Ignorance Since 1973”. In trying to show you even the most basic misperceptions you all here seem to have, it is like trying to explain evolution to a young-earth creationist. “Show me the evidence! The bible/the government/my expert says it isn’t so, and you’ll never have enough evidence to prove it to me!” I guess the only way you find truth is to be willing to face things that are personally painful, that result in cognitive dissonance or are even personally embarrasing. I’ve had to do that on many occasions in my life, including on the issue of 9/11. I’ve asked three times. I’ll ask again. \*\*Do you have any positive, objective evidence of your claims? Yes or no?\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/261 "2006-04-06T20:31:50Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Why hello Mr. Pot. Nice to meet you.Why wouldn’t it be? Fertilizer is [a very powerful explosive by itself](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster), let alone with the addition of nitromethane. I suppose that when someone has 14,000+ posts, this gives them permission to ignore evidence. Explain the bombs found in the A.P. Murrah building…you can’t wiggle your way out of that. Do you blame that on McVeigh? He broke into a federally secured building, and planted multiple large explosives? The government and the media can change their stories all they want, but they can’t erase this audio, or the videos of local news footage that still exist. Explain the media cover-up…why did I have to search on the internet, and why were these bombs not reported to me on the nightly news? My imagination? The audio says otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948.md?page=14)