# 9/11 Conspiracy Theories! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948 "2006-03-26T10:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/322 "2006-04-07T06:11:14Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Some not so straight “stuff” for the Straight Dopers. This guy has been trying to get his story out for years, but as usual only the alternative media will listen. He explains that since 1976, the military was contemplating ways the towers could be brought down in a 9/11-style attack, and he and others were involved in an exercise exploring the possibilities. Yet we are told, “no one could have imagined…” > [http://www.codenamegrillfire.com/index.php?n=1&id=1](http://www.codenamegrillfire.com/index.php?n=1&id=1) Hmmmm… I think we’re tin-foil hat territorry here. A single witness, has completely uncarroberated statement that he worked for a sectret government program 25 years ago. He has no documentary evidence to support this or other carroberating witnesses. As other posters have pointed out there was plenty stuff that should have raised warning signals prior to 9/11 (remeber “Bin laden determined to attack america”). But there is not evidence that that was anything other incompetence (IF it WAS a conspiracy WHY leave so much _fake_ evidence that does nothing that make the PTB INCOMPETENT). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/323 "2006-04-07T06:12:02Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > No, but having reviewed both sides of the argument on that issue I think it is likely he knew about it and not only allowed it to happen but took measures to help it happen. The President? Having reviewed both sides doesn’t mean jack when your competence to make a decision on the matter is nil. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/324 "2006-04-07T06:14:25Z")
For those who are interested in what NIST is actually discovering about the WTC attacks, an interesting presentation is found at [Reliving 9/11, With Fire as Teacher](http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_fire-teacher.html). Including: (Regarding computer simulations): > [@](#): > > Such care has been given to structural subtleties that extra steel bracing, added to two crucial columns in the core of the south tower to help support an enormous bank vault on the 97th floor, have been included in the model. And those niceties could be important: an earlier simulation of the impacts, created as part of an insurance lawsuit, incorrectly predicted that the south tower should have crumbled as soon as the plane struck it at nearly 600 miles an hour. Regarding aluminum wings cutting through pillars: > [@](#): > > The new simulation has already shed light on one of the darker mysteries of the attacks: how the extremely light aluminum of the plane wings could have sliced through the heavier steel of the exterior columns like knives. Dr. Sadek finds that without the mass of fuel-laden tanks in the wings, they might not have been able to cut through and do such grievous damage inside. > > In several of the computer runs, Dr. Sadek said, “we did not observe any fracture of the column in the case when the wing did not have any fuel.” Regarding claims that the floors did not sag: > [@](#): > > One thing the investigation has not done yet is find a specific sequence of failures that could have brought the towers down. But early studies of how isolated parts of the buildings might fail have produced their own unexpected twist. > > Suspicion has long centered on the floor trusses, which some experts believe to have been poorly fireproofed and especially susceptible to buckling in a fire. Those suspicions have been bolstered by videos and photographs that show the trusses sagging and possibly giving way in the minutes before each tower collapsed. > > But preliminary calculations suggest that long before they buckle, the trusses are likely to expand in the heat and bow the exterior columns perilously outward. The highly simplified calculations have not been carried beyond that point, but presumably the columns themselves could then have buckled under the tremendous weight they carried. ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/325 "2006-04-07T06:20:24Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The President? Having reviewed both sides doesn’t mean jack when your competence to make a decision on the matter is nil. Yes, the most holy of holies, the president. In some people’s minds, these decisions are justified for the “greater good”. For others, it is a matter of what they can get away with and what is best for them personally. Do all of you here really subscribe to a school-book version of history? You don’t know history unless you are focusing your attention on declassifed information…the non-whitewashed version. What access do you have to still-classified information that the rest of us don’t, so that you are in a greater position of competence? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/326 "2006-04-07T06:20:56Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > This exercise was not about other buildings…there were detailed discussions and analysis of how the WTC might be brought down. Whether or not a jet aircraft alone or if explosives might also be required was discussed. This was our own military. So? The WTC was a natural subject for such speculation being (I believe at the time) the tallest buildings in the U.S. and an easy-to-spot target for a suicidal pilot. The military comes up with all kinds of seemingly off-the-wall scenarios, including invading friendly nations or repelling invasions from same. In this particular case, one such concept happened to come tragically true. Had you come across plans about a less prominent New York building (say, the Flatiron) and said building ended up being destroyed under circumstances far murkier than the WTC… well, even then, that wouldn’t comprise evidence. As a side note, my nation’s military routinely stages exercises in which we are fighting the fictional nation of “Orangeland”, whose territory covers parts of what is real-life southern Quebec and northern New York state (at least, that’s how we play it in my Montreal-based unit - units out west presumably adjust Orangeland’s borders to conform to their available training space). That doesn’t actually mean we are planning attacks against the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/327 "2006-04-07T06:34:10Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Yes, the most holy of holies, the president. The most holy of holies? What are you on about? > [@](#): > > In some people’s minds, these decisions are justified for the “greater good”. Are those people, perhaps, of sound mind? > [@](#): > > For others, it is a matter of what they can get away with and what is best for them personally. Got any proof, actual evidence? Do you not notice a theme here? > [@](#): > > Do all of you here really subscribe to a school-book version of history? You don’t know history unless you are focusing your attention on declassifed information…the non-whitewashed version. What access do you have to still-classified information that the rest of us don’t, so that you are in a greater position of competence? Well, for one thing, the “rest of us” apparently are far more into logic and evidence than you and your pal appear to be. Now that you’ve tossed out an accusation against a president, do you care to substantiate it with evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/328 "2006-04-07T06:37:32Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > The military comes up with all kinds of seemingly off-the-wall scenarios, including invading friendly nations or repelling invasions from same. And what’s even more shocking is _those very same countries **participate** in the scenarios_! I think a couple of CTs need to “get a grip,” preferably on Reality[sup]tm[/sup]. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/329 "2006-04-07T06:40:00Z")
I wouldn’t hold my breath Monty. I’m certainly not holding mine for the various questions I’ve asked and still received no answer too. The discussion is really getting wild if we are off into the la la land of the FDR CT. I’m sensing we’ll be hitting the moon landing hoax soon at this rate… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/330 "2006-04-07T07:05:37Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > So? The WTC was a natural subject for such speculation being (I believe at the time) the tallest buildings in the U.S. and an easy-to-spot target for a suicidal pilot. The military comes up with all kinds of seemingly off-the-wall scenarios, including invading friendly nations or repelling invasions from same. In this particular case, one such concept happened to come tragically true. > > Had you come across plans about a less prominent New York building (say, the Flatiron) and said building ended up being destroyed under circumstances far murkier than the WTC… well, even then, that wouldn’t comprise evidence. > > As a side note, my nation’s military routinely stages exercises in which we are fighting the fictional nation of “Orangeland”, whose territory covers parts of what is real-life southern Quebec and northern New York state (at least, that’s how we play it in my Montreal-based unit - units out west presumably adjust Orangeland’s borders to conform to their available training space). That doesn’t actually mean we are planning attacks against the U.S. Well that’s the beauty of it, for someone who actually does want to carry out a real attack. Under various innocent pretexts, including preparing for possible terrorists attacks, you can actually plan and refine plans for your own terrorist attacks. Who even among those in relatively high positions would be the wiser? You can even plan drills for the very thing you are planning to do on the very day you are planning to do it to confuse your people to the extent they are unable to defend against it. I have a much higher regard for U.S. military personnel than the rest of you apparently do, I don’t think they are at all incompetent in what they do, and they would have done the very thing they are trained to do that day had they not been intentionally prevented from doing it. Another good way to help things work smoothly if you are planning to assist and direct a large-scale terrorist attack against your own nation is to prepare a memo directing unprecendented transfer of control of air defenses over to yourself in the event of a hijacking like [Dick Cheney did in this June 1, 2001 Document.](http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf) Oh that’s right, I forgot. :smack: There are no conspiracies, oops, shame on me and my incompetence. Honestly, you all should do a little investigative research instead of buying what you are told so easily. Critical thought is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/331 "2006-04-07T07:11:49Z")
I’ve said it once, I’ve said it twice, I’ll say it again. There are at least [15 reasons why the 9/11 conspiracy is absurd](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7268133&postcount=186). Do you, Sent, bigpoppadiaz or any other CT still following this debate, have any response? ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/332 "2006-04-07T07:27:19Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > I’ve said it once, I’ve said it twice, I’ll say it again. There are at least [15 reasons why the 9/11 conspiracy is absurd](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7268133&postcount=186). Do you, Sent, bigpoppadiaz or any other CT still following this debate, have any response? Well I have to go, but I’ll be back some other time to answer the 15 questions. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/333 "2006-04-07T08:15:58Z")
Here is my theory. The 9/11 conspiracy proponents are doing such a poor job that they must be planted by the real conspirators to make the idea seem preposterous. Unless of course, they want us to think that the proponents are plants just to throw us off course. It just gets deeper and deeper the more you look at it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/334 "2006-04-07T08:50:22Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Honestly, you all should do a little investigative research instead of buying what you are told so easily. Only two posters in this thread are buying what they’re told so easily. Have you not noticed that it’s the conspiracy theorists who are touting unbelieveable stuff and relying on certain people to “buy what you are told so easily”? And your suggestion that others do investigative researching is quite funny. > [@](#): > > Critical thought is a good thing. Agreed. Care to begin exercising some? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/335 "2006-04-07T08:51:56Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Well I have to go, but I’ll be back some other time to answer the 15 questions. Classic. Just… Classic. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/336 "2006-04-07T10:38:56Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Well that’s the beauty of it, for someone who actually does want to carry out a real attack. Under various innocent pretexts, including preparing for possible terrorists attacks, you can actually plan and refine plans for your own terrorist attacks. You _are_ aware that your “plot” involves planning an attack under the administration of Gerald Ford, then passing it along to the Carter administration to the Reagan administration to the Bush administration to the Clinton administration to the Bush administration and not one person in 25 years saw fit to blow the whistle except a single soldier involved in some routine drills, right? And all those groups–from both parties–were simply waiting for the appropriate day to launch an attack so as to secure the rights to a pipeline that they have never bothered to build. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/337 "2006-04-07T11:05:23Z")
> [@bigpappadiaz](#): > > And of course, you thus ignore the fact that jet fuel burns hotter than paper and sofas, and that whole point you guys are trying to make is that the towers collapsed because of the all the heat produced by the jet fuel… 50 minutes later? That is not what I have been saying. And I doubt others said that as well. > [@](#): > > But why wouldn’t they have collapsed in the 15 minutes the jet fuel was burning? Because it takes time to heat a column of steel. NISt experiments showed that it took about an hour. > [@](#): > > So I guess it _was_ the only high rise super-structure to burn down because of burning paper and carpet and sofas. Have you heard of the Meridian Fire in Philadelphia? Or the Madrid Windsor? The former had firefighting efforts abandoned because the PFD feared a pancake collapse. The latter’s steel structure did collapse, fortunately the majority of the building was based on a concrete structure, which was much more resistant to fire damage. [http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/meridienplaza.html](http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/meridienplaza.html) [http://www.concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=1095](http://www.concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=1095) Neither of these buildings had jet fuel burning within them. One was started by a pile of oily rags, the other by a cigarette. > [@](#): > > There was also no sagging of the floors or any other signs indicating that the fire was causing the steel to lose its integrity. > > Also the core of the building is an incredibly large heat sink, with plenty of room and steel to transfer any heat that those burning sofas and staplers might radiate in its direction. **According to the NIST report (which assumes the worst of every possibility occured just to initiate a collapse in the computer models and then nevermind the entire structure turned to dust on the way down) the building was still pretty much _intact_ as proven by recordings of its oscillations after the impact.** Again, you demonstrate that you did not read the NIST report. They certainly did not assume the worst of every possibility. > [@](#): > > So why did it fall down again? [How](http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml) [many](http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html) [times](http://wtc.nist.gov/) [must](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/) [must](http://www.architectureweek.com/cgi-bin/wlk?http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtcreport.htm) [we explain?](http://www.luxinzheng.net/publications/english_WTC.htm) ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/338 "2006-04-07T13:13:03Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > This guy has been trying to get his story out for years, but as usual only the alternative media will listen. He explains that since 1976, the military was contemplating ways the towers could be brought down in a 9/11-style attack, and he and others were involved in an exercise exploring the possibilities. Yet we are told, “no one could have imagined…” Look, Sent, no one doubts that plane attacks against buildings were considered by various defense sub-groups at various times. That is not at all in question here. Yes, on 9/12/2001, the administration’s surprise was over-acted. We know this. But let’s look at the quality of the “evidence” that you’ve posted here. Some guy, who claims to be an “enlistedman” 30 years ago, and claims that he took part in some kind of military consideration of plane/building attacks, is coming out with the info because he was given “Non-Resindable Orders that I was given to get this information to the American People if the World Trade Center Twin Towers was ever Attacked in the Manner in which we discussed in the Study.” So… atrocious writing skills, poor logic in extrapolating some drills 30 years ago with attacks 25 years later, can’t get someone to edit his writing for him, and he brings as evidence… … wait for it… … that he passed a polygraph. Isn’t that just … typical. Not of him, but of you for even bringing this up as some kind of point. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/339 "2006-04-07T13:46:43Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Another good way to help things work smoothly if you are planning to assist and direct a large-scale terrorist attack against your own nation is to prepare a memo directing unprecendented transfer of control of air defenses over to yourself in the event of a hijacking like [Dick Cheney did in this June 1, 2001 Document.](http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf) Say what? Cheney _isn’t even mentioned_ in that document! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/340 "2006-04-07T13:53:18Z")
The quotes are a bit out of order, but I’m rearranging them solely to point out a contradiction: > [@Sent](#): > > Who even among those in relatively high positions would be the wiser? > [@](#): > > Another good way to help things work smoothly if you are planning to assist and direct a large-scale terrorist attack against your own nation is to prepare a memo directing unprecendented transfer of control of air defenses over to yourself in the event of a hijacking like [Dick Cheney did in this June 1, 2001 Document.](http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf) Is Dick Cheney in a sufficiently high position to be the wiser, or not? > [@](#): > > I have a much higher regard for U.S. military personnel than the rest of you apparently do, I don’t think they are at all incompetent in what they do, and they would have done the very thing they are trained to do that day had they not been intentionally prevented from doing it. It’s becoming unclear to me what role you think the U.S. military played in all of this? Were they planning the attack, or prevented from defending against it? The Cheney memo you cite clearly puts control of “law enforcement activity” concerning hijacked aircraft (military and civil) under the FAA, with the military directed to provide assistance. Is senior military authority involved in this at all? > [@](#): > > Oh that’s right, I forgot. :smack: > > There are no conspiracies, oops, shame on me and my incompetence. Don’t beat yourself up. There _was_ a conspiracy, of 19 men and several dozen others, mostly of Arab descent, to hijack and crash American commercial jets. ---
**Author:** ![Greenback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/2bfe46/32.png) [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/341 "2006-04-07T14:07:09Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Don’t beat yourself up. There _was_ a conspiracy, of 19 men and several dozen others, mostly of Arab descent, to hijack and crash American commercial jets. WHA? Cite! Sorry. This thread is become too painful to read. Keep up the good fight all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948.md?page=18)