# 9/11 Conspiracy Theories! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948 "2006-03-26T10:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/141 "2006-04-04T19:39:55Z")
**Sent** , putting aside the idea of proof, evidence, motive, etc… I would just like a simple explanation of how a conspiracy so large in scope as this seems, is kept so quiet? Think of Watergate, Iran-Contra, Monica Gate, and the scores of other government “secrets” that I’m sure they never wanted to get out, but did. How can so many people be kept quiet? How has not a single document, or snippet for that matter, discussing this plan not made it out? Truly, I really want your thoughts on this. And saying everyone is just being threatened is not enough. There are tons of sites and news outlets that would spare no expense in protecting someone who would come forward on something so large. The “Smoking Gun” would post a document like that in a heartbeat…threats be damned! So please, explain. I really want your thoughts on this. ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/142 "2006-04-04T19:48:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Cite? What, you want intelligence people to explain to you how you’ve been subjected to such an operation? All right, here’s a couple who are willing to lay it out for you. [http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/analysis/2004/0726failures911.htm](http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/analysis/2004/0726failures911.htm) Let Mr. Shayler break it down for you, face to face as it were: [Part 1](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5403286136814574974&q=david+shayler&pl=true) [Part 2](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2953150409490347185&q=david+shayler&pl=true) > [@](#): > > Cite? > [@](#): > > Cite? What, you want to see the how widespread the fires were? In this short video there are enough stills and videos to get a good idea. Pause it at the photos. [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5848378758602000405&q=wtc+7&pl=true&auto=true](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5848378758602000405&q=wtc+7&pl=true&auto=true) Would you honestly expect such small fires to cause the collapse of such a structure? Honestly, if you were not intentionally trying to come to any given conclusion? Fires appear on only a few floors, and no fires appear on the bottom-most floors, yet the entire building collapses at the same freefall speed you would expect had the steel beams been severed completely. I see no “pancaking” in the various clips of the collapse, the entire building collapses at nearly the same instant. I would expect to see a slowing down of the collapse due to the mass and resistance of each subsequent floor were your claims true, so the video and photographic evidence clearly supports the use of explosives, fire will not cause such uniform failure to facilitate this manner of collapse. How many experts will it take before you can see it for yourself? > [@](#): > > Cite? No, you cite me an example of a tall building that has ever fallen straight down into its own footprint from any cause other than controlled demolition. Every single past instance is your citation. This is like me asking you for a citation if you assert that a tree falls in a given direction of weakness. First law of physics my friend: An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. > [@](#): > > Cite? > [@](#): > > Cite? What, you want a video of the collapse so you can observe it for yourself? Look at the highest level debris is falling from versus where explosions are happening lower down. [http://physics911.ca/video/2001/wtc2\_collapse\_abc1\_large.mpeg](http://physics911.ca/video/2001/wtc2_collapse_abc1_large.mpeg) Cite? [http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html](http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html) > [@](#): > > Cite? Here’s a good article on the basics of pyroclastic flow as it applies to this situation. [http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/physics/](http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/physics/) > [@](#): > > And you’re not really saying collapsing buildings don’t produce dust, are you? Ever been near a collapsed building? No, I am saying they do not produce very, very fine dust particles of this kind that flow out in clouds at high speeds. > [@](#): > > Cite? Look at the debris being propelled from WTC 1 collapse…measure the angle. Tell me that’s gravity. [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1051022303200842888&q=wtc+1+collapse&pl=true](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1051022303200842888&q=wtc+1+collapse&pl=true) > [@](#): > > Cite? Again, just look at the the concrete being pulverzied in the video and tell me it isn’t explosives. ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/143 "2006-04-04T19:57:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Secondly, its NOT up to me to prove anything. Its up to YOU to prove your theory on why the building collapsed by backing up your theory with, well, some fricking proof. Some evidence, expert opinion, etc. Clear evidence is here being provided you of explosives. The official story is also a theory…which has yet to be shown to be consistent with the facts. The explosives theory is consistent with every line of evidence. So you do have a responsibility to prove it. [http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm](http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm) [qutoe] A) The main stream theory of why the towers fell IS impossible…or even improbable. B) That every other explaination is in fact also improbable and thus C) That the only explaination (however improbable) is yours. [/quote] If you can prove the official conspiracy theory, billionaire Jimmy Walter will even give you $1 million. He at leasts puts his money where his mouth is. > [@](#): > > I’m willing to be swayed though…trot out all this evidence that flies in the face of the vast majority of experts…including one of the architects and several of the structural engineers who actually designed and built the damn buildings. It’s interesting how stories change. Are you familiar with the video of the chief architect stating that he desiged it to take a jet liner impact? In fact, he expected it could sustain multiple impacts without collapse. > [@](#): > > I’d rather keep it technical and so within the realm of science and engineering myself. Thus evidence and facts can be asked for and if not provided then the wild rantings can be more easily dismissed. When you start getting into the murky world of ‘common-sense questions’ things are less precise. You get into peoples OPINIONS then, and all their bizzare misconceptions and wierd little paranoia’s about the gubberment and such. Me too. Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you. -XT [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/144 "2006-04-04T19:59:25Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Secondly, its NOT up to me to prove anything. Its up to YOU to prove your theory on why the building collapsed by backing up your theory with, well, some fricking proof. Some evidence, expert opinion, etc. Clear evidence is here being provided you of explosives. The official story is also a theory…which has yet to be shown to be consistent with the facts. The explosives theory is consistent with every line of evidence. So you do have a responsibility to prove it. [qutoe] A) The main stream theory of why the towers fell IS impossible…or even improbable. B) That every other explaination is in fact also improbable and thus C) That the only explaination (however improbable) is yours. [/quote] If you can prove the official conspiracy theory, billionaire Jimmy Walter will even give you $1 million. He at leasts puts his money where his mouth is. [http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm](http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm) > [@](#): > > I’m willing to be swayed though…trot out all this evidence that flies in the face of the vast majority of experts…including one of the architects and several of the structural engineers who actually designed and built the damn buildings. It’s interesting how stories change. Are you familiar with the video of the chief architect stating that he desiged it to take a jet liner impact? In fact, he expected it could sustain multiple impacts without collapse. Ironically, he died in the collapse. > [@](#): > > I’d rather keep it technical and so within the realm of science and engineering myself. Thus evidence and facts can be asked for and if not provided then the wild rantings can be more easily dismissed. When you start getting into the murky world of ‘common-sense questions’ things are less precise. You get into peoples OPINIONS then, and all their bizzare misconceptions and wierd little paranoia’s about the gubberment and such. Me too. Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you. ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/145 "2006-04-04T20:03:49Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Then why bother with the planes and just go with the explosives? Well let’s think here…because then we would know that 19 Arabs alone could not plant explosives in one of the most high-security buildings possible (WTC 7 housed the CIA, DOD, etc.) And my mistake, Silverstein was the lease holder, not the property owner. Still, he got the insurance money for the destruction of the buildings. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/146 "2006-04-04T20:15:55Z")
Sent, have you heard the one about how the 9/11 conspiracy theory is actually a clever CIA plot to distract anti-administration folks into chasing a red herring? So, actually, it’s you who has fallen for one of the greatest psychological operations in history. ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/147 "2006-04-04T20:33:24Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > Sent, have you heard the one about how the 9/11 conspiracy theory is actually a clever CIA plot to distract anti-administration folks into chasing a red herring? So, actually, it’s you who has fallen for one of the greatest psychological operations in history. Look at the evidence instead of trying to make snide comments. This isn’t just about this administration. That’s why people such as Prof. Jones, who was a life-long Republican who voted for Bush in 2000, have had to become aware of what really happened all too painfully. Look at the people who are speaking out, these are big-time people…but you won’t see it in the mainstream media. They are stonewalling, just like the Justice Department, but they won’t be able to forever unless something else drastic is done. Morgan Reynolds- Chief Economist under Reagan, “Father of Reagonomics” Dr. Robert Bowman- Former Director of the Star Wars program Ray McGovern- 27-year CIA analyst David Shayler- Former MI5 agent Paul Craig Roberts- Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Reagan Prof. David Ray Griffin- Theologian of LA Times fame Countless others are asking hard questions and believe it was an inside job, but are not coming out publicly to say what they believe. ---
**Author:** ![bigpappadiaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bigpappadiaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigpappadiaz)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/148 "2006-04-04T20:51:47Z")
> [@NIST](#): > > “Had the fireproofing not been dislodged, the temperature rise of the structural components would likely have been insufficient to cause the global collapse of the towers,” OOOoOokay, planes flying into the twin towers dislodged the fireproofing. What dislodged the fireproofing from building 7 so that it totally collapsed? What kind of fuel was burning in the fuel tanks again? PPppssSShhhh… There was also some slag that was pulled out of the rubble weeks after the collapse. After it solidified it started rusting, and the end product of the thermite reaction is molten iron. Critics try to say it’s aluminum, but there was no plane under building 7 but plenty of puddles of metal there. HaHaHa. [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586) The physics professor’s lecture with all the good evidence stuff. The very beginning has the workers clearing away the rubble remarking about how damn hot it was. > [@](#): > > “This is how it’s been since day one. Oh it’s unbelievable and this is 6 weeks later. And as we get closer to the center of this it gets hotter and hotter. It’s probably 1,500 degrees down there.” Yep, that’s the dude at ground zero saying that and then some. If you want to see him say it, click on the link and watch the first 30 seconds. It’s not that hard. Watch the rest too, please. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/149 "2006-04-04T21:01:49Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Well let’s think here…because then we would know that 19 Arabs alone could not plant explosives in one of the most high-security buildings possible (WTC 7 housed the CIA, DOD, etc.) Uh-huh. Why were planes flown into 1 & 2 if those buildings were set to be demolished with explosives, again? Can you not see that you’re arguing in circles? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/150 "2006-04-04T21:07:21Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Are you familiar with the video of the chief architect stating that he desiged it to take a jet liner impact? Specifically a 707, which are significantly smaller and carry less fuel than what did hit the towers. ---
**Author:** ![bigpappadiaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bigpappadiaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigpappadiaz)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/151 "2006-04-04T21:10:48Z")
No, you :wally I’ll say it for him again. Planes were flown into buildings 1 and 2 so that people like you would think it was the planes that took them down. Really, it was the hidden explosives that did it. That’s why they flew the planes into the buildings that were set to be destroyed with explosives. See? ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/152 "2006-04-04T21:12:59Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Uh-huh. Why were planes flown into 1 & 2 if those buildings were set to be demolished with explosives, again? > > Can you not see that you’re arguing in circles? There is no circle here…how would the American people beleived that 19 Arabs could get access to those buildings and plant thousands of pounds of explosives? That would be a long stretch compared to the traditional hijacking of aircraft that we were all previously familiar with. I don’t see where there is a logical problem in this regard, it was a good plan as carried out. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/153 "2006-04-04T21:24:57Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no circle here…how would the American people beleived that 19 Arabs could get access to those buildings and plant thousands of pounds of explosives? From the earlier(1993)attempt at blowing up the WTC? it wasn’t 19 arabs, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/154 "2006-04-04T21:25:17Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Specifically a 707, which are significantly smaller and carry less fuel than what did hit the towers. Not as large as a 757, but not small by any means. [http://vnexpress.net/Vietnam/The-gioi/Tu-lieu/2003/12/3B9CE15B/Boeing-7071.jpg](http://vnexpress.net/Vietnam/The-gioi/Tu-lieu/2003/12/3B9CE15B/Boeing-7071.jpg) In a 2001 interview he said he believed it could sustain multiple impacts of this nature. 707 Wingspan 145 feet 9 inches Length 152 feet 11 inches 757 Wingspan 124 feet 10 in Length 178 ft 7 in ---
**Author:** ![Sent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Sent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/155 "2006-04-04T21:30:02Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > From the earlier(1993)attempt at blowing up the WTC? it wasn’t 19 arabs, but still… You’re not seeing it…how are foreign terrorist going to get into WTC 7, one of the most high-security buildings housing offices of the CIA and DOD, to plant the charges? Nobody would believe that. But they would believe they hijacked planes and flew them into buildings, and if you get enough “experts” who will say that was the cause of the building collapse they’ll believe the planes knocked the buildings down. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/156 "2006-04-04T21:41:40Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Morgan Reynolds- Chief Economist under Reagan, “Father of Reagonomics” Claims there were no jets flown into the towers. > [@](#): > > _Dr. Robert Bowman- Former Director of the Star Wars program_ [Apparently believes the “Pentagon hit by a missle” theory](http://www.rmbowman.com/ssn/Secrecy.htm) > [@](#): > > _Ray McGovern- 27-year CIA analyst_ Apparently a believer in the “Operation Northwoods” theory and is calling for Duhbya’s impeachment. > [@](#): > > _David Shayler- Former MI5 agent_ “Former” because he passed official documents to the Daily Mail, claiming that MI5 was being paranoid about socialists. > [@](#): > > _Paul Craig Roberts- Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Reagan_ Endorsed Kerry and is also calling for Duhbya’s impeachment. Feels the 9/11 Commision’s report inadequate. > [@](#): > > _Prof. David Ray Griffin- Theologian of LA Times fame_ [Lessee…doesn’t believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon…brings up the Patriot Act, the Afghani pipeline theory, Iraq, geopolitical dominiance…wrote a book…](http://web.archive.org/web/20050322095300/http://independent.com/news/news906.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/157 "2006-04-04T21:43:01Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > Not as large as a 757, but not small by any means. > > [http://vnexpress.net/Vietnam/The-gioi/Tu-lieu/2003/12/3B9CE15B/Boeing-7071.jpg](http://vnexpress.net/Vietnam/The-gioi/Tu-lieu/2003/12/3B9CE15B/Boeing-7071.jpg) > > In a 2001 interview he said he believed it could sustain multiple impacts of this nature. At top speed? With a full tank of fuel? I think not. [http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB?OpenDocument](http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > "The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark. That’s from the lead structural engineer of the WTC. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/158 "2006-04-04T21:52:30Z")
> [@bigpappadiaz](#): > > OOOoOokay, planes flying into the twin towers dislodged the fireproofing. What dislodged the fireproofing from building 7 so that it totally collapsed? What kind of fuel was burning in the fuel tanks again? PPppssSShhhh… So you are denying the existance of desiel tank, with pumps and thousands of gallons of fuel in the basement of WTC7? Also, are you a fireman? Because several firemen in NYC, including the Fire Chief of NYC have gone on record as saying the building was too likely to collapse to safely fight the fire within. Fire causing collapse is a critical danger for hi-rise fires. Fire resulted in the metal structure portion of the Madrid Windsor. Fear of fire induced collapse led the Philadelphia firefighters to cease fighting the fire at the Meridian Plaza building ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/159 "2006-04-04T21:59:54Z")
> [@Sent](#): > > There is no circle here…how would the American people beleived that 19 Arabs could get access to those buildings and plant thousands of pounds of explosives? Why does it have to be 19 Arabs? > [@](#): > > \*Not as large as a 757, but not small by any means. > > [http://vnexpress.net/Vietnam/The-gioi/Tu-lieu/2003/12/3B9CE15B/Boeing-7071.jpg](http://vnexpress.net/Vietnam/The-gioi/Tu-lieu/2003/12/3B9CE15B/Boeing-7071.jpg) > > In a 2001 interview he said he believed it could sustain multiple impacts of this nature. > > 707 > Wingspan 145 feet 9 inches > Length 152 feet 11 inches > 757 > > Wingspan 124 feet 10 in > Length 178 ft 7 in\* The towers were hit by 767ER Widebodies, which are larger than 757s and have twice the range of a 707. > [@bigpappadiaz](#): > > I’ll say it for him again. Planes were flown into buildings 1 and 2 so that people like you would think it was the planes that took them down. Really, it was the hidden explosives that did it. That’s why they flew the planes into the buildings that were set to be destroyed with explosives. See? No, I don’t see. How could the planes have been flown into the towers so precicely so as not to affect the planned demolition? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948/160 "2006-04-04T22:01:56Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > So you are denying the existance of desiel tank, with pumps and thousands of gallons of fuel in the basement of WTC7? The installation of which was a violation of NYC fire codes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/349948.md?page=9)