Sent, i still want you to answer my question from page 1!
Putting all this evidence aside, estimate for me how many people you think it would take to pull this off. Then, please, please, explain to me how they are now all being kept quiet about it, and will continue to be kept quiet about it.
I want you to think on every US Govt program that has been made public, that the Govt didnt want to make public, and explain how the Govt…OUR US Govt…lead by GWB…who cannot even pronunce nuclear correctly…is keeping any shred of real proof from coming out.
I have read numerous detailed engineering reports attempting to prove the pancake theory, all of them ignored the manner of collapse. I read everything that everyone in this thread linked to…did you read everything I linked to? Most of my relevant information was ignored as well. It’s you who should do a little more reading.
Ha!
This video alone should result in an uproar due to conspiracy involving one Richard Cheney, Vice President of the United States of America.
One (serious) question I have for either of the two CT’s still in this thread is…from your own sites and based on the theory that the towers were brought down via explosives, how much explosive do you estimate it would take to cause the kind of damage you are claiming happened? In your theory, aproximately how many load bearing members would have needed to be taken out with your thermite, how much thermite per load bearing member? If thermite is your theories explosive of choice then a theory on how it was used without exposing the load bearing members would be nice too. It seems to me that your theory also has explosions (well, unless you are using thermite) on multiple floors as well. Exactly how many floors are we talking about, based on your theory.
PLEASE…no photo’s, no blurry video. I want a straight answer…even if the straight answer is ‘um, well our theory really doesn’t go into all that pesky detail stuff’. If your theory DOES have an answer (even if its an estimate), try and focus on just answering the question directly. i.e. ‘You’d need to take out X number of load bearing supports, with an estimate of Y lbs/kgs of explosive needed. Our theory estimates that a minimum of Z floors had explosive devices on them in order to bring the buildings down’. Something like that please. And I don’t want YOUR estimate…I want the estimate from the, er, ‘experts’ pushing the theory you are defending.
Basically, yes. There was an incident at Cleveland State University a couple of years back in which some nut walked in to a building and shot some people. During the crisis, the building and many blocks around it were shut down, but the media saturated the area. Before the end of the incident, we were told (with video along with claims that the information had originated with the police to support the claims) that there were multiple shooters, that there were sniper attacks from the building at the people outside, and that the shooter(s) was(were) roaming the building shooting people. When the dust settled, it was discovered that a single shooter, armed only with a handgun, shot a few people against whom he had grudges, and then went and sat in a classroom or restroom until he was discovered by police doing a room-to-room search. He had never had or used a rifle and had never pointed a gun out a window.
If you go back to the threads that were posted on this site during the morning and afternoon of September 11, 2001, you will find many people re-posting information from Washington, D.C. about attacks on bridges over the Potomac, buildings other than the Pentagon in flames, and reports of other sabotage efforts that either occurred or were thwarted. None of those events turned out to be true, even though the sources were often film crews talking to people that were supposedly directly involved.
I was in a taxi going to O’Hare in Chicago about a year prior to the WTC/Pentagon attacks. As we pulled up in front of the concourse, we found dozens of police cars and hundreds of people lining the sidewalk outside the terminal building. That is exactly the whole of what the taxi driver and I knew–lots of cop cars and lots of pedestrians. The taxi guy called in to his dispatcher to report a problem at O’Hare and gave a quite detailed description of the fact that there had been a shooting at the airport and the police had locked it down and were examining people for weapons. The reality (it later turned out) was that some fool in a hurry had gone around the metal detectors and ducked into a service passageway. No guns, no bloodshed, no search for a non-existent gunman. Just an excitable idiot with a radio inventing tales in his ignorance.
In the chaos of a disaster, a lot of things get said that turn out to be false.
The “bomb” reports from the Murrah building could have been the results of “typical” confusion, efforts by news reporters to “report” what was, basically, their own (groundless) speculation, reports by police that were either careless speculation (there is a reason police departments hire professional spokespersons; cops are not actually trained in choosing their words in public) or even a smart-assed comment to get a reporter to go away when the cop did not realize that the reporter would believe a bad joke.
The bomb squads probably were at Murrah and probably did pick stuff up. However, they were as likely to be handling suspicious looking but ultimately innocuous containers prudently as actually removing bombs. (And NOT ONE of those bomb squad guys has raised their voice in outrage that the government “denied” what they were doing.)
Another stunning example of incompetence it was left to the VP to give the orders to shoot down hijacked planes, and these orders were not passed on correctly:
If the reaction had been flawless and the executive branch had come out looking masterful and efficent, they this would support your theory. They don’t, they come out looking like the bunch of incompetent half wits they are.
In a follow up to my own post on trying to get the CT’s to actually engage in the debate, if anyone from the theory you are defending actually has a floor plan of WHICH load bearing members were (or could have been) taken out per floor, that would be quite helpful as well.
Thanks in advance…I’m certain you guys will rush right out to gather the info so we can proceed.
You still do not understand compartmentalization, this is why you subscribe to “too many conspirators”.
There is no way for me to know of all the people who had direct foreknowledge, and it is likely that very, very few knew all the complete details of the plan. It would only take 5-10 men to plant the explosives, and a few to plan it. Innocent pretexts can be devised to do most of the work. To ensure the failure of our air defenses, Cheney had all authority transferred to him that had never before been in the hands of a non-military official, there is a memo proving this. The rules regarding who had authority to scramble fighters were changed. Only a few individuals needed to be involved in ordering the apparently innocent war games of planes being hijacked and being flown into buildings…the NORAD and FAA and other Air Force people just did their normal jobs and didn’t know what was going on. There are indications false blips were inserted onto the radar screens with software tampering to add to the confusion.
In fact I HAVE read (and looked at and watched) nearly every link EVERYONE has posted in this thread…I’ve at least skimmed them. If you will give me the post number of what you felt was important and a brief description of what I should be looking for, or if you will repost the link with a quote of the part you find the most critical I’d be more than happy to look at it again.
To return the favor, I’d like you to review the link in my post #113 and tell me how this in any way ‘ignored the manner of collapse’. Also, if you would, comment on what you find hard to believe about the fire explaination. I’m looking for specifics. I will give YOU specifics if you will point me back to the post number and link you wish me to comment about.
Oh, and if you could russle up that data I’m asking for in posts 283 and 286 I think it would be helpful to the discussion. Thanks!
And who were reponsible for getting 19 men into this country, training them to not only fly but fly a large plane into a specific spot so precicely as not to set off any planted explosives, getting them onto flights out of New York and Boston prior to 9/11 so they could workout their details, etc.?
What memo? Where?
How’d Flight 93 get shot down? Where’d the missile come from that impacted the Pentagon?
A building in Chantilly, VA. Virginia isn’t near New York; MD, PA, DE, & NJ are all inbetween.
I’ve seen “prima facie” cases made, with merit equal to the cases demonstrated by Sent and bigpappadiaz, proving the existence of a Bigfoot/Yeti clan, the Loch Ness Monster, and the Moon Landing Hoax. Not surprising, all the supporters of these undisputable proofs think those who fail to see are ignoramuses (ignoramii? - help me out here, Dopers). Is there some CT handbook on how to treat non-believers? Some secret Illuminati handshake we’re all missing?
Jeez, you’d think we would have learned from so much sparring with lekatt.
Certainly looks that way. They all use some variation of: “You have to work hard to put the pieces together yourself, and think for yourself.” Never mind that they don’t bother with thinking for themselves. All they can do is repeat the same lines spouted by their fellow theorists. Do any of them have one iota of solid evidence (not opinion, conjecture, or hypotheses)? Of course not, but that doesn’t stop them from repeating those lines. They’re all in the same reality tunnel and, to them, anyone not in that tunnel is a fool.
I’m sorry…you obtained your expertise on
demolition
Government
military authority and chain of command
radar
software
NORAD
the FAA
from…where exactly?
It’s like the guys in my office arguing both sides of the “controlled demolition” theory. Hey dumbtards!* I’m the only person in this office who has a degree in structural engineering and is even remotely qualified to offer an educated opinion on how a skyscrapper should or should not collapse…and I barely know!
You mean that hour special on the Discovery Channel doesn’t qualify me? Oh man, I thought I was an expert on so many subjects. Heck, I enjoyed The Deadliest Catch so much and watched so intently, I was going to hire out as an experienced hand next season! (I also really like 24 - be afraid…be very afraid).
Oh yes! Please, continue disbelieving. I know the time will come when the truth comes out, but it probably won’t be until each and every American are flat on thier ass broke and their way of comfortable way of life is gone. Until then I’ll keep arguing.
The color of the metal tells you how hot it is. The claim is that the buildings were taken down Demo-style, and that thermite was used to cut through the steel. The fact that the metal is close to yellow glowing hot, when it was only barely exposed to burning jet fuel (NIST officially stated that the jet fuel burned off within minutes) makes it relevant.
Not exactly, but we can use our brains and ponder it. The NIST report even admits that its computer model was tweaked over and over so that they could finally get it to the point of collapse, but that’s it. Not how they actually collapsed. The “loaded with fuel” part sounds more dramatic than it actually is. Most of the fuel was burned off in the initial impact and impressive fireball, the rest burned off in about 10, 15 minutes. They also don’t take into consideration how the buildings fell or anything like that. In the footage of the South Tower’s collapse, you very clearly see it tilting and getting ready to tip over when all of a sudden everything underneath it turns to dust.
I think the number 19 has been lowered, since some of those guys have turned up elsewhere in the world alive and well. They were probably surprised to see themselves on TV.
Besides, can someone show me a reputable site that denies the molten steel existed?
So, it is your position that a bunch of not-really-identified burning stuff falling from the edge of the building (where there was no structural support) is evidence that someone set a “demolition” of the building? Given the difficulty of setting enough charges to bring down the core, why did they waste time and effort finding ways to set the charges around the perimeter?
You are the one who pointed out that the tower appeared to fall from the center, outward which is exactly consistent with the report of the government, yet you want to make a big deal about irrelevant stuff on the fringes of the building and cry “Conspiracy!”
You might want to examine your position for “Consistency!”.
No, the number stayed the same. It was, however, discovered that a couple of them had been using stolen identities, so that the original published names included some errors.
Where is this “truth” you speak of? All you’ve shown is is a bunch of opinion, conjecture, and hypotheses, all of which may or may not be true. I don’t know about you but I prefer to put my faith in what can be deomonstrated by fact whereas your faith is in opinion, conjecture, and hypotheses.
Assuming molten steel did exist, there’s no way to know that it came from the collapse or from the oven effect that tom mentioned earlier.
