Come to think of it, maybe he slept at a Holiday Inn…
-XT
The nuts are using a CNN poll as proof that they’re winning, nevermind the fact that the poll is skewed because it’s possible to vote more than once.
www.911myths.com seem to brilliantly debunk the “hijackers still alive” conspiracy theory by blaming name mix-ups because the hijcakers were Arabs and all Arabs have similar names:
“More than 200 Saeed Alghamdis? This shows how unsurprising the “hijackers still alive” stories are. And how none of them yet provide proof that the person they’re referring to matches the claimed hijacker.”
While I seem to remember something like:
“The Saudi Airlines pilot, Saeed Al-Ghamdi, 25, and Abdulaziz Al-Omari, an engineer from Riyadh, are furious that the hijackers’ “personal details” - including name, place, date of birth and occupation - matched their own.”
We could get into that debate but it is useless. A proper investigation of 911 could reveal that this was all indeed due to Arabs with box cutters lucking out with a spectacular display of ineptitude by NORAD and the CIA, and the designers of the Twin Towers being comletely wrong about the structural integrity of their work, in which case this would all rightly be judged as a stupifying amount of ado about nothing. If a proper investigation of 911 reveals something else, I am sure that said investigation would be more useful in finding out the details than guessing about them now is.
You also seem to be under the impression that I was trying to prove something in my previous post, which is not correct. What I am trying to say is that I feel there is enough information available to warrant a real investigation, not just saying Bin Laden did it with airplanes in the study and leaving it at that.
Neither am I saying that you should only regard Prof. Jones’ information as valid. The fact of the matter is that there is a lot of conflicting stuff out there, and some of it …borders on the cooky. There are, however, people out there who talk about this in a responsible manner and are just pointing out the inconsistencies and asking for (ok, demanding) a full investigation which would include the possibility of explosives having been used, and would look closer at the shocking way the people of America were let down that fateful day (previous knowledge and such). I find Prof. Jones’ material pretty much spot-on, if somewhat tainted by religion (he is a Merkin, after all), which is why I recommend checking him out. He did not inspire me in any way, though; I only heard of him last December, long after I started looking this issue. The reason I said the PM article was a farce is that they hand-picked a few of the points some “911 theorists” maintain to pick apart. I will admit that a few of them were debunked fairly impressively (such as the outlandish Hologram/Missile jet hybrid nonsense, IIRC), but they didn’t touch on any of the issues now being prioritised by ST911.
I am not going to debate this point by point; I’ve already done that so many times and I am positive that others will be make the exact points I would have.
I am not afraid of scrutiny, sir–you’re lucky I’m not wearing my gauntlet! I am a European, I have been on these boards for a little while now (not long, but still…) and I know exactly how the “debate” would evolve. Don’t have the time or energy to go through this once more and, to be brutally honest, I’m just not that passionate about this. I just find the issue fascinating and am really looking forward to seeing how this goes, although I do sincerely hope I am as hopelessly caught up in anti-American lies as you think I am, and this was all a mere catastrophical failure by the US government.
I was actually just looking for a Word-document I made early last summer, where I summorized a few points, but I can’t find it (I really wanted to see when I wrote it, most of all). At the time I was actually pretty worked up about this, having an urge to “spread the truth”, having the resistance living on and such. I decided not to post it because I like you people and am sadly more interested in coming across as a Good Guy than saving the world. Now that I can point at other people, too, I feel somewhat better about discussing this… is the expression “lunacy loves company?”
Oh, for Christ’s sake!
You wanna know why the collapse looked like a controlled demolition? Because skyscrapers are what we scientists call “very heavy”. Buildings collapse when you let the gravity in. The weight of the skyscraper itself is what destroys the skyscraper, even in a controlled demolition…actually ESPECIALLY in a controlled demolition.
People expect buildings to tip over like a skyscraper in a Godzilla movie. Except really tall buildings don’t work that way. The forces holding the building together are pretty weak compared to the force of gravity, and when a large building collapses it collapses like a house of cards–straight down.
The other thing that makes no sense about the “demolition” argument is that it MAKES NO SENSE!
We all saw the planes crash into the buildings, right? So planes crashed into the building. If you were going to wire the buildings with explosives, why would you crash a plane into the building afterward? You stand a very good chance of causing your controlled demolition to fail! If you have a conspiracy to crash airplanes into the buildings there’s no reason to do a controlled demolition. If you have a conspiracy to demolish the buildings with explosives, then there’s no reason to crash planes into them.
Why would you do both? It makes no sense. IT MAKES NO SENSE!
Well that settles it, then. Thanks, Lemur866–you’ve probably saved me a considerable amount of future embarrassment.
Good sense is not a commodity the conspiracy theorists hold much stock in. Reality checks will always bounce with these people. Their beliefs have far more in common with religion. The veil has been lifted from their eyes, they see the truth!
“Look at the video? Do you not see? Is it not obvious?”
They are looking through the eyes of faith and seeing what it pleases them to see, what it excites them to see. The gnosis, the hidden truth. Arguing with such people is akin to arguing with Jehovah’s Witnesses on your doorstep. Wasted time.
Since when do conspiricy theories have to make sense?? 
Really, I don’t know why people get all upset by this. Its like the conspiricy theorists who think that the moon landings were staged. I remember an issue of Skeptical Inquirer that showed some diagrams from some guy purporting to show how the pictures were faked (there were all kinds of arrows pointing to gods know what…shadows supposedly ‘impossible’ on the moon, ‘false’/‘impossible’ camera angles, etc). They basically tore it to shreds. And yet there are STILL folks who think the moon landings were faked…including the guru who wrote into S.I. with the ‘proof’.
Generally there is just no talking to such folks. Showing them proof just reinforces what they already know…that they are right and that you and others who are skeptical are either deluded, or in on the conspiricy. Showing experts (who actually ARE experts) in the fields that touch on the conspiricy only prooves that THEY are in on it. Showing them that THEIR experts (by and large) aren’t anything of the sort IN THE FIELDS THAT TOUCH ON THE CONSPRICY is meaningless. Like Creationists who toss out the odd Physist who just KNOWS that ID is right and Evolution flawed…despite the fact the person in question ISN’T an expert in any of the fields being discussed.
The fact that experts in the field have actually answered every question posed by the 9/11 conspiricy theorists is meaningless to them. I’ve SEEN the structural models of exactly how the buildings collapsed…hell, BY one of the guys that originally designed the frickin building for that matter. There simply IS no mystery as to why or how the buildings collapsed. Its simple physics and structural dynamics. And yet, even with the vast majority of experts pretty much saying the same things the conspiricy persists. We have to just face reality…its impossible to kill these things and they just have to be lived with. UFO’s, Bigfoot, Psychic Powers, extraterrestrial possession and abductions, Goat Suckers (GOAT SUCKERS for gods sake!), JFK, Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor, WMD in Iraq…er…well, anyway, you get the point.
MYTHBUSTERS…WHERE ARE YOU!!!
-XT
That’s why conspiracy theories are only theories.
The CIA certain did some very dodgy things during the cold war (deposing several democratically elected leaders in places like Guatemala, supporting brutal terrorists in places like Nicaragua, bank-rolling brutal dictators, etc.), and planned to do even more dodgy things. But how many of the things did they manage to do secrectly ? All these activities, and the extent of CIA involvement, got into public domain, either while they were happening, or shortly afterwards.
Well, his wife once played a nuclear physicist. Close enough?
The royal “you”. The pipeline theory was, of course, brought up by ArchitectChore.
Fascinating, isn’t it? I’ve been thinking a lot about the nature of discussion/debate and “truths” in general because of this… I haven’t come close to forming any kind of theory or even a complete thought about it but I am truly fascinated by these types of “discussions” between complete polar opposites. To be fair, you didn’t really say anything about the OP but I appreciate the generalization and confirmation of the moon landing.
Please note that I do not consider this to be solid proof of the US government’s involvement in the 911 atrocities.
Sure. Since I seem to have forgotten to include the context (it can’t be that you’re ignoring it), I mentioned Northwoods as a reply to kingpengvin’s
Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that, with Northwoods in mind, it is not completely out of the question, is it? There was a room full of people planning on pulling this off, some persons may have asked to be excused but, eventually, they came to the conclusion of killing their own people, all rationality aside. Am I wrong?
Please note that I do not consider this to be solid proof of the US government’s involvement in the 911 atrocities.
Here’s a thread over at DU discussing the “missing plane” hypothesis. (Essentially, that US Air 175 was not the plane that supposedly hit the WTC, that it was another plane, with USA 175 still missing).
There’s also the Pentagon was blown up by a missle, not a plane! theory that’s been going around since day 1.
OK, I see. Sorry, I thought someone had doubted the existence of the planes on this thread and was having a hard time finding it. There are also people who claim that these were actually missiles dressed up as airplanes–sometimes with the help of holographs! I am also pretty sure I read something about Bush being a reptile alien, but I can’t quite remember how that resulted in him causing 9/11.
That is the part of this that I find second-most irritating; every discussion I take part in, I have to argue with both sides, as I usually agree more with the “debunkers” than the conspiracy theorists. This topic obviously attracts the loons and I understand how it is easier to dismiss the whole discussion based on their comments.
To be honest, I do find the official Pentagon story a little off, but I just haven’t seen enough to decide either way and the WTC buildings are a much easier and, well, saner are of discussion, IMHO.
Wait.
You just said up above that you didn’t think the WTC collapsed because somebody (undefined somebody) for some particular reason (undefined reason) rammed two planes into the towers. Or maybe that you “weren’t convinced”.
You do believe two planes rammed into the towers, right? Or wrong?
I somehow have the idea that you aren’t denying that two planes rammed the towers, only that you weren’t convinced that was the reason the towers collapsed.
Right? Or wrong?
There was a conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln. A conspiracy to assassinate a President or Pope or Arch-Duke isn’t non-sensical in and of itself. That doesn’t mean that random nutcases acting alone can’t also assassinate public figures. Conspiracies to commit robbery, murder, genocide, tax evasion, whatever, conspiracies happen every day. It isn’t the conspiracy itself that doesn’t make sense.
So a conspiracy to destroy the WTC isn’t nonsensical, because we know that such a thing really happened. A couple of people got together and planned to destroy the WTC. That really happened. We know that some hijackers boarded 4 airplanes. We know they took control of the airplanes. Two crashed into the WTC. One crashed into the Pentagon. One crashed into a field in Pennsylvania.
Any conspiracy theory that doesn’t take these facts into account just doesn’t make sense. Why wire a building with explosives, then recruit crazed Islamist fanatics to crash a plane into the building you’ve already wired with explosives? Why not, you know, push the button? You needed a cover story? But the cover story doesn’t make any sense, if you could somehow trick the Islamists into hijacking the planes and crashing them into buildings then why the fuck would you wire the buildings with explosives first? It would be a tremendous risk. If you could wire the buildings with explosives, why would you bother convincing Islamist fanatics to crash planes into them? It would be a tremendous risk.
Like in JFK, where Donald Sutherland talks about seeing newspapers in New Zealand with the news of the assassination of JFK before the assassination occured. Except that doesn’t make sense! Why would the conspirators print the papers before the assassination, when every news organization on the planet is going to be covering the assassination? Why does New Zealand need the news 10 hours before the rest of the world?
Likewise, why would you need a cover story for your explosive demolition? Remember the 1993 WTC bombing? When the Islamist fanatics drove a van full of explosives into the WTC underground parking garage and set it off? Why can’t that be your cover story? If you wire the building with explosives, wouldn’t a better cover story be that terrorists wired the building with explosives?
Look, conspiracy theories don’t have to make sense, but they should at least make sense, you know?
Conspiracy nuts don’t understand how timezones work. 
Er…yeah. Its certainly facinating.
No, I didn’t really speak to the OP. I did one of these a few months ago using the standard cites (including the cite by one of the architechs of the actual building describing his surprise that the thing stayed up even as long as it did…i.e. no mystery here). Once was enough for me. I’m a lazy sort when it comes to cites anyway, as most folks here know.
Glad to help about the moon landing thing though.
One of three things is going on here. Either A) You misread what I was actually saying (which is a distinct possibility since you are a Brit IIRC and I’m a American who is also formerly from Mexico), or B) You do deadpan tongue in cheek a hell of a lot better than I do, or C) (along similar lines) your statement is a whoosh, or D) I have no idea what you are talking about. 
To clarify…what exactly don’t you consider to be solid proof of the US government’s involvemnet in the 9/11 atrocities? The moon landing supposed hoax? The fact that nearly every expert agrees that there is no mystery here? Something else entirely?
Inquiring minds want to know!
-XT
UselessGit, do you have any evidence or a model for you feel the towers should have fallen? Do you have nay structural engineers to back up any such claims? How much have you studied the pancaking that you so easily deride?
Also, could you point me to some real evidence of the alleged molten steel? Thanks.
Excuse me, but your reasonning is flawed. By definition, you can’t know how many things they managed to do secretly, and you’ve only heard about the actions that gort into the public domain. You’ve no way to tell that all these activities went into the public domain, not even that a majority of them did.
That’s assuming that you’re not yourself a retired high-ranking CIA official.
True enough…as far as it goes. However, like the ‘fake’ moon landings this would be big…quite a bit bigger than those failed operations that we DO know about. Couple that with the sheer number of people who would have to be in on it, and the (near ) flawless why they were able to trick all the REAL experts (or perhaps they are in on it too?) and the lack of any tangable evidence…well, I don’t know about you but my own Occams Razor seems to be telling me something here.
shush Keep it quiet, ya know? People might be listening…
-XT