# 9/11 conspiracy theories **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817 "2010-04-12T08:36:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/341 "2010-04-21T22:06:56Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > There are no easily available “facts” to present regarding this incident, This right here might be the dumbest statement I’ve ever read on this board, and that is saying something. Massive video coverage, both professional and amateur. Eyewitnesses seeing the planes hit the buildings. The verifiable deaths of actual people both in the buildings and on the planes. The actual analysis of debris and of structural plans by actual, you know, engineerings and other experts in the field. The actual buildings FALLING DOWN in front of us, live and in color. These, as far as I know, fit the definition of “fact.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/342 "2010-04-21T22:15:37Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I like the way all you skeptics come over as if you are doing the world a public service, while making out that doubters of the “Official Theory” are all deranged “Chicken Little” types. Some of them are just foolish and not deranged. (And it’s probably not a public service; mostly it’s entertainment for the skeptics.) But that being said, I don’t think you have grounds to criticize anybody’s attitude in this discussion. > [@](#): > > The laws of probability alone say that you can’t all be right, and your “opponents” are all wrong. This is ridiculous and wrong. It’s like saying “Bodies in motion approach either other partly because of gravity, and partly because of magic. The laws of probably say the gravity theory can’t be all right!” Or “Light is sometimes a particle, sometimes a wave, and sometimes it’s ravioli.” “The center of the solar system is partly the Sun but it’s also sometimes the Earth, and other times the whole thing is a mobile over the bed of an alien child. The heliocentric theory can’t be ALL right! The odds are overwhelmingly against it!” > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > There are no easily available “facts” to present regarding this incident You’re half right. For people who believe in a shadowy conspiracy that used implausible means to create a counterfactual event for uncertain purposes… there are no easily available facts. > [@](#): > > that will need to be openly addressed before your country can move on from this event. Who in this discussion hasn’t moved on? You and **iron bender** are asking everybody to rehash an easily explicable disaster that happened almost a decade ago. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Listen, I’ve heard it all before. Your main arguments are from authority and incredulity. And those things, what do you call 'em… facts. > [@](#): > > Your side thinks it knows all the facts, our side believes that we wouldn’t be told the real truth, IF it differed from that described by the OCT. Right: you assume there are different facts and a different truth, and that if we made the assumptions you’re making, we’d believe the same thing. What people here try to point out over and over again is that there’s no reason to make those assumptions in the first place. Most of them are nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/343 "2010-04-21T22:21:34Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > There are no easily available “facts” to present regarding this incident, but there are suspicions by a lot of people - who aren’t ALL cranks, despite how you’d like to misrepresent them. Pot, kettle, anyone? - that will need to be openly addressed before your country can move on from this event. All the suspicions have been addressed _because_ there are so many available facts. The ones who keep dragging up “suspicions” without addressing the facts seem very much to be cranks. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/344 "2010-04-21T22:27:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Right: you assume there are different facts and a different truth, and that if we made the assumptions you’re making, we’d believe the same thing. What people here try to point out over and over again is that there’s no reason to make those assumptions in the first place. But of coure there’s an overriding reason - since They must be telling us lies, there’s an alternate version(s) that is the truth, no matter how impossibly stupid it appears to those grounded in facts. > [@Marley23](#): > > Some (Truthers) are just foolish and not deranged. And some are revolting bigots. Of course, they might well be foolish and deranged at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/345 "2010-04-21T23:05:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > But of coure there’s an overriding reason - since They must be telling us lies, there’s an alternate version(s) that is the truth, no matter how impossibly stupid it appears to those grounded in facts.And some are revolting bigots. Of course, they might well be foolish and deranged at the same time. Every single “conspiracy theory” I’ve seen has brought the government into the issue as being culpable and the reason being some nefarious “they” are in charge of all government, all the media, and all the banks. Care to guess who the “they” are? It’s all prejudice and there’s nothing else to it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/346 "2010-04-21T23:09:16Z")
So, ivan, can you give us some idea of how long we’ll have to wait until you get lucky and actually come up with a verifiable fact? By your argument, it’s just a matter of time. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/347 "2010-04-21T23:34:52Z")
No, no, **Bryan**. Probability Theory only states that it’s possible, maybe even probable but not guaranteed! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/348 "2010-04-21T23:35:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > mostly it’s entertainment for the skeptics Mostly? Wait… there’s another possible reason? 😃 It’s a bit like going to a boxing match between a gorilla and a quadruple amputee. It may not be savory, but it has its moments of high comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/349 "2010-04-21T23:35:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Care to guess who the “they” are? The Rotarians? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/350 "2010-04-21T23:45:05Z")
I believe they prefer to be called “people of Rotish persuasion.” ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/351 "2010-04-22T01:57:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Mostly? Wait… there’s another possible reason? 😃 I do it because it’s easy. Debating something that is obviously true is much easier than debating something reasonable people can disagree on. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/352 "2010-04-22T05:49:09Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > I do it because it’s easy. Debating something that is obviously true is much easier than debating something reasonable people can disagree on. Debating something unreasonable people _do_ disagree on can be fun, though, until you start taking them seriously, in which case the fun evaporates very quickly. I gave it a shot with my “slow premise chain”, but even though ironbender agreed (as far as we got with it), it obviously had no effect. It doesn’t matter if he accepts that office fires could collapse the towers - that’s just a dead end waste of time for him that doesn’t get him to the conclusion he’s already decided on. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/353 "2010-04-22T09:40:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So, ivan, can you give us some idea of how long we’ll have to wait until you get lucky and actually come up with a verifiable fact? By your argument, it’s just a matter of time. Do you think that if Obama had set up a task force with unlimited access to information which discovered that there were some very suspicious circumstances leading to this event, that he’d then disclose such news to the public, bearing in mind how divided your country is over less important issues? My guess is the problem would be sorted out “in-house”. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/354 "2010-04-22T10:37:41Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > There is a minor political party here in Quebec, fairly left wing and actually having some fairly good ideas whose leader, while not denying that planes were involved, believes that it was all a joint plot between Israel and US intelligence. He is a converted Muslim (I think his wife is Muslim by birth) and apparently cannot face the fact that militant Muslims were responsible. Now this is a rather old post, but since this thread is still active and I don’t believe the errors in it have been corrected, I must respond. If you’re talking about Amir Khadir, I don’t believe he’s a “converted” Muslim, seeing how he’s of Iranian origin (born in Tehran). But he also doesn’t seem like an especially devout Muslim, so his anti-Americanism and support for the Palestinian cause stem more from his leftist ethos than his Islamic ethos. And yes, he does believe in some 9/11 conspiracy theories, which makes me lose some respect for him. I probably wouldn’t vote for Québec Solidaire anyway (they’re much too left-wing), but this to me is a black mark on his character, for someone who’s otherwise a very interesting politician and person. He’s also not exactly the leader of QS, that’d be Françoise David, but he is their vice- or co-leader and only MNA. > [@](#): > > He is also reflexively anti-Semitic (as were nearly all French Canadians a couple generations ago–they still honor as a national hero a priest whose main claim to fame was to have supported Hitler during the war), so this is the natural consequence. Left unexplained is the euphoria among the Muslim community at the time. And if you’re talking about Lionel Groulx, while he was anti-semitic, I’ll have to ask for a cite that he supported Hitler because that doesn’t seem likely to me. (Believing Canada should not intervene in WWII doesn’t mean support for Hitler, by the way.) He also isn’t really a “national hero” (who really knows about him today?) and if he’s celebrated, it’s probably because of his work in historiography. Marcel Trudel, one of Quebec’s best and most well-known historians, says that he and all other post-WWII Quebec historians owe their career to Groulx, who decided after the war to break from the tradition of the _Belle Histoire_ that tells a compelling story but isn’t very scientific and start a scientific history institute. Not everyone can, at 70 years old, decide that much of their previous work was kind of misguided and start again, and Trudel obviously has a lot of respect for Groulx for this reason. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/355 "2010-04-22T12:03:34Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do you think that if Obama had set up a task force with unlimited access to information which discovered that there were some very suspicious circumstances leading to this event, that he’d then disclose such news to the public, bearing in mind how divided your country is over less important issues? My guess is the problem would be sorted out “in-house”. You mean suspicious things like people learning to fly commercial airplanes without wanting to learn to land them? A declaration of war against Americans? The rise of jihadist leaders with a lot of experience in warfare against opponents that had superior resources? A repeated pattern of terror attacks against American targets? A previous attack on the World Trade Center? Intelligence analysis indicating that Bin Ladin was ramping up for a possible attack in the USA, including suspicions that planes might be hijacked? All that and more is “information which discovered that there were some very suspicious circumstances leading to this event”. Unfortunately, it was skillfully suppressed by releasing it in something called “The 9-11 Commission Report”. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/356 "2010-04-22T12:09:04Z")
No, I’m talking about suspicious stuff that might incriminate people in the highest positions of authority in the land. Do you seriously think such information would be divulged openly, or at all, without the utmost of pressure being applied? ---
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/357 "2010-04-22T12:21:24Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, I’m talking about suspicious stuff that might incriminate people in the highest positions of authority in the land. Do you seriously think such information would be divulged openly, or at all, without the utmost of pressure being applied? So the proof that it was a massive government-led conspiracy is that there was no official report that it was a massive government-led conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/358 "2010-04-22T12:24:08Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, I’m talking about suspicious stuff that might incriminate people in the highest positions of authority in the land. Do you seriously think such information would be divulged openly, or at all, without the utmost of pressure being applied? The highest positions of authority in the land have been incriminated repeatedly, just not in the way you wish. There were multiple breakdowns in communication, analysis and operations leading up to the attacks. If you haven’t noticed, failing to stop the attacks was blamed by many Democrats on President Bush while many Republicans have placed blame on President Clinton. In particular, Clinton is often blamed for failing to capture or kill Bin Ladin while Bush is often blamed for failing to heed warnings about impending attack. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/359 "2010-04-22T12:31:35Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, I’m talking about suspicious stuff that might incriminate people in the highest positions of authority in the land. Do you seriously think such information would be divulged openly, or at all, without the utmost of pressure being applied? Well, unless George W. Bush himself flew one of the planes (he is a trained pilot, after all), he must have had helpers. Probably a lot of helpers. In fact, he’d need a few hundred or a few thousand helpers to pull this off. Presumably, we eventually move from “the highest positions of authority” all the way down to the low-level stooge who represents some minor cog in the master plan. Do you have any cog candidates in mind? That would be the place to start if one wants to expose the entire hypothetical conspiracy, or at least it always has been for actual conspiracies - find a low-level guy who is clearly guilty of something, get him to flip on his boss, who flips on _his_ boss, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/360 "2010-04-22T12:44:56Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, unless George W. Bush himself flew one of the planes (he is a trained pilot, after all), he must have had helpers. Probably a lot of helpers. In fact, he’d need a few hundred or a few thousand helpers to pull this off. The estimates I’ve seen have all ranged well into the thousands, or tens of thousands. In addition to the military, administration staff and anyone connected with the camps into which all the people on those missing airline flights must have been “disappeared”, we’ve got a bunch of people at the airlines and in air traffic control that had to be involved. The list is vast. All that fantastic bomb technology, holographic deception, master planning and thousands of people all sworn to secrecy with no one spilling the beans, and then amateur Internet sleuths uncover the greatest conspiracy in history. It’s a marvel, I tells you. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, I’m talking about suspicious stuff that might incriminate people in the highest positions of authority in the land. I wish we weren’t confined to remote communication, so we could see **ivan** ’s eyes glowing with the rapture of hidden knowledge as he types this stuff. > [@ivan astikov](#): > > Do you think that if Obama had set up a task force with unlimited access to information which discovered that there were some very suspicious circumstances leading to this event, that he’d then disclose such news to the public, bearing in mind how divided your country is over less important issues? Sure - while everyone was agog over the revelations, he could sneak unlimited socialist legislation through Congress. The man’s no fool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817.md?page=19)