# 9/11 conspiracy theories **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817 "2010-04-12T08:36:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ironbender](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ba8739/32.png) [@ironbender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ironbender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/141 "2010-04-15T20:50:45Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The FAA procedure at the time for a domestic hijacking was to notify the FBI, not the military. On the morning of 9/11, the military (NORAD) was notified, but not in time. > > For flight 11, the North East Defense Sector (NEADS) was notified at 8:37, and it crashed at 8:46. > > For flight 175, NEADS was notified at 9:03, and it crashed at 9:03. > > For flight 77, NEADS was notified at 9:35 and it crashed at 9:37. > > For flight 93, NEADS was notified at 10:07, when it had already crashed at 10:03 (but they had not yet figured that out). I’ll agree with all this, but it was known that there was somthing wrong before the times you give. There was a lag in the information, and this is where the problem is. This, I think is where they balmed it on the drills happening at the same time. Flight 11 went off course between 8:14 and 8:20, last transmission at 8:13:31. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/142 "2010-04-15T20:55:10Z")
ironbender, you’re throwing out a lot of speculation. Yes, in retrospect, we should have had procedures where the military was notified earlier, but in September 2001, we didn’t. Who blamed the drills that morning? It’s obvious by reading the transcripts that the exercises (which were not to start until 9:00) did not slow down any responses. Questions about that were dealt with up front and from then on, it was the real thing to everyone. > [@ironbender](#): > > There are procedures, in place before 9/11, that were not followed. What procedures, specifically? ---
**Author:** ![palindromemordnilap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/db5fbb/32.png) [@palindromemordnilap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palindromemordnilap)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/143 "2010-04-15T21:22:49Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > If a loved one drops dead in front of me from what appears to be a heart attack, but then a later autopsy shows the death resulted from a massive stroke, it will not render my prior assumption irrational and I will continue to find unconvincing “alternate” theories that it was murder by a psychic assassin, vengeful ghost, or invisible death-ray fired from Uranus. Both a heart attack and a stroke are normal causes of death. Buildings falling into their own footprints do not ever happen. So a better analogy would be: If someone in front of me spontaneously bursts into flames and I wonder how that could have happened, I’ll accept whatever reason an authority figure tells me as indisputable fact, until another authority figure tells me it’s wrong and then I’ll believe that. The OP to this thread asks, in essence, how can anyone possibly believe anything different from the official version of events. Anyone who questioned the pancake theory was considered a lunatic for several years. Then NIST came along and said, the pancake theory is not supported by the facts, here’s a different theory. That does not mean that the government was behind the attacks. It does mean that people were correct to question facts that did not make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/144 "2010-04-15T21:24:01Z")
> [@ironbender](#): > > xtisme , I’ll agree that fighters are not on a hair trigger like during the cold war. My understanding is that they could be ready in 15 minutes to intercept, with no firepower, and they can fly at close to 1500 MPH. I’ll put a link up later that shows all the bases on the east coast that could do this. Nonsense. The idea that you can get a high-performance fighter fueled & flight planned in under 15 minutes in the post-cold war era is absurd. Most often these sort of claims are based of a truther misunderstanding of military readiness terminology. > [@](#): > > They could have easily gotten to those planes, but they did not. You are wrong. In addition, the drills in the case of the flight control operators likely helped the response time. The drills ensured people were in their seats and ready to take proper action. The most delay from the transcripts would be a few seconds as one person asked if this was part of the drill. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/145 "2010-04-15T21:28:25Z")
> [@palindromemordnilap](#): > > Both a heart attack and a stroke are normal causes of death. Buildings falling into their own footprints do not ever happen. The buildings most decidedly did not fall into their own footprint. Massive damage to nearby buildings, including the other WTC building is proof of that. > [@](#): > > The OP to this thread asks, in essence, how can anyone possibly believe anything different from the official version of events. Anyone who questioned the pancake theory was considered a lunatic for several years. Questioning the pancake theory was most decidedly NOT what was getting people called lunatics. It was their constant attempts to substitute ANY collapse mechanism with ‘explosive/superthermite’. If someone had produced a model of a differing collapse method (as NIST eventually did) it likely would have been received and examined normally. > [@](#): > > Then NIST came along and said, the pancake theory is not supported by the facts, here’s a different theory. That does not mean that the government was behind the attacks. It does mean that people were correct to question facts that did not make sense. Yes they were. The attitude expressed by the CTers was not a case of one collapse model vs another, it was like creationists insisting that their perceived holes in the Theory of Evolution must mean that God created everything in 7 days and that Jesus holds the atoms together. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/146 "2010-04-15T21:30:47Z")
> [@palindromemordnilap](#): > > Buildings falling into their own footprints do not ever happen. It has already been explained in this thread that that’s not what occurred. > [@](#): > > The OP to this thread asks, in essence, how can anyone possibly believe anything different from the official version of events. The OP does not say that. It asks about goofy theories and specifically cites controlled demolition as a theory unworthy of belief. > [@ironbender](#): > > I could go on all day This is apparently a Truther motto. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/147 "2010-04-15T21:35:42Z")
> [@palindromemordnilap](#): > > Both a heart attack and a stroke are normal causes of death. Buildings falling into their own footprints do not ever happen. They [didn’t](http://www.savitzky.com/photos/2002/wtc-photo.jpg) “fall in to their own footprints”. Acknowledge you were incorrect, and move on from that point. ---
**Author:** ![palindromemordnilap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/db5fbb/32.png) [@palindromemordnilap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palindromemordnilap)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/148 "2010-04-15T21:39:36Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Neither did the moon landings nor the JFK assassination, though the spread of both hoax/conspiracy theories was greatly enhanced by the internet. Nuts found that there were more idiots than they thought buying into their b.s. > > I can’t prove it, but I often think the originators are start these things as pranks or ego boosts. FYI, in 2003, an ABC poll found that 70% of people suspect the JFK assassination involved more than one person. [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/JFK\_poll\_031116.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/JFK_poll_031116.html) Perhaps you believe there are mountains of WMDs in Iraq as well. Because the government said it was so, and the government never lies. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/149 "2010-04-15T21:45:40Z")
> [@palindromemordnilap](#): > > Perhaps you believe there are mountains of WMDs in Iraq as well. Because the government said it was so, and the government never lies. What do you think is the “official story” and what is suspect about it? Be specific, please. Or, maybe you can poke holes in my theory: [ol] [li]Muslim terrorists hijacked airplanes, and flew them in to WTC 1, WTC 2, and the Pentagon[/li][li]As a result of (1), WTC 1, 2, and 7 collapsed[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![ironbender](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ba8739/32.png) [@ironbender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ironbender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/150 "2010-04-15T21:48:56Z")
The buildings didn’t fall into their own footprint? WTC 7 didn’t fall into its footprint? Looked to me like the rubble was contained in piles that basically matched the footprint of the buildings. Why were there molten metal hot spots for days after a kerosene fueled fire? ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/151 "2010-04-15T21:51:40Z")
> [@palindromemordnilap](#): > > Both a heart attack and a stroke are normal causes of death. Buildings falling into their own footprints do not ever happen. So a better analogy would be: If someone in front of me spontaneously bursts into flames and I wonder how that could have happened, I’ll accept whatever reason an authority figure tells me as indisputable fact, until another authority figure tells me it’s wrong and then I’ll believe that. > > The OP to this thread asks, in essence, how can anyone possibly believe anything different from the official version of events. Anyone who questioned the pancake theory was considered a lunatic for several years. Then NIST came along and said, the pancake theory is not supported by the facts, here’s a different theory. That does not mean that the government was behind the attacks. It does mean that people were correct to question facts that did not make sense. Since you’re making some specific statements about structural failure would you mind answering my question to you from earlier? [QUOTE=Me, back in post #73] Do you have any particular education or work experience in the topic(s) under discussion? For example do you have some kind of degree in civil engineering, architecture, mechanical engineering, materials science or demolitions, or do you have some relevant work experience in those fields? If so what is it? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/152 "2010-04-15T21:51:54Z")
> [@ironbender](#): > > The buildings didn’t fall into their own footprint? WTC 7 didn’t fall into its footprint? Looked to me like the rubble was contained in piles that basically matched the footprint of the buildings. > > Why were there molten metal hot spots for days after a kerosene fueled fire? Nonsense. Did you even look at the picture which **Algorithm** posted? ---
**Author:** ![palindromemordnilap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/db5fbb/32.png) [@palindromemordnilap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palindromemordnilap)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/153 "2010-04-15T21:53:15Z")
> [@ironbender](#): > > My biggest problem is why didn’t jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of the hijacked airplanes. > > Most people think that intercept means shoot down, and can only be accomplished by executive decision, but this is not true. Standard Interception Procedures[here](http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0506.html) are in place, and were not followed on that day. > > Some will say it’s because there were milltary exercise going on that day, that just happened to involve hijacked airplanes, and that nobody knew what was real and what was part of the exercise. The powerfull US miltary was rendered impotent on the very day we needed it the most. > > Very lucky for the terrorists they picked that day to attack, a little too lucky IMHO. Sounds more like a case of deliberate misdirection to me. I’ve read a lot about the NORAD issue. The scariest thing is that a plane could hit the Pentagon (which is near the White house and the U.S. Capitol) with no jets scrambled to intercept, and that this occurred an hour (more or less) after the first plane struck the WTC. One account suggested that the DC jets were given confusing instructions and assumed that there was an overseas threat, so they went out over the Atlantic and could not get back in time to do any good. Suspicious, maybe. Conclusive, no. Incompetence can explain a lot. However, the OP asks how anyone can possibly believe the government was involved, and this is the kind of thing that gives rise to those ideas. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/154 "2010-04-15T22:00:26Z")
> [@ironbender](#): > > Why were there molten metal hot spots for days after a kerosene fueled fire? Prove there were “molten metal hot spots,” please. Pictures would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/155 "2010-04-15T22:06:47Z")
> [@ironbender](#): > > The buildings didn’t fall into their own footprint? WTC 7 didn’t fall into its footprint? Looked to me like the rubble was contained in piles that basically matched the footprint of the buildings. Look closer. The debris from the towers spilled out hundreds of feet in all directions and caused significant damage for blocks around. WTC 7 did not fall straight down, but actually slumped across the street and destroyed the 30 West Broadway building across the street. > [@](#): > > Why were there molten metal hot spots for days after a kerosene fueled fire? Most of the fuel for the fires was not from the kerosene, but from the building contents. Modern office buildings contain a surprisingly large amount of fuel in normal office furnishings and contents. The basement of the towers also contained a parking garage full of trucks and cars. Furthermore, a slow oxygen-limited fire smoldering in the ruins is the only possible explanation for hot spots remaining for days and weeks afterward. Demolition explosives ‘burn’ in microseconds, and don’t create much heat - they cut by pressure, not heat. Even thermite wouldn’t do it, since thermite contains its own oxygen and once ignited burns out in seconds. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/156 "2010-04-15T22:07:24Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Pictures would be nice. [/QUOTE] Actually, pictures are to ambiguous, IMHO. What would be nice is documented proof in the form of an expert testifying that there are ‘molten metal hot spots’ that lasted ‘for days after’, and a metallurgist stating that said ‘molten metal’ wasn’t aluminum but instead structural steel. -XT ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/157 "2010-04-15T22:10:37Z")
> [@palindromemordnilap](#): > > Anyone who questioned the pancake theory was considered a lunatic for several years. Then NIST came along and said, the pancake theory is not supported by the facts, here’s a different theory. It’s not true that anyone who questioned the pancake theory was called a lunatic. The original idea was that one of the floors had pulled loose from its end connections, and “pancaked” onto the floor below it, triggering a progressive collapse. The updated explanation is that the sagging floors pulled the perimeter columns inward until they could no longer support the weight above them, triggering a progressive collapse. But in both scenarios, once the collapse has initiated, the explanation didn’t change: progressive collapse, pretty much an avalanche. It’s that last part that the lunatics have always had a problem with, and that hasn’t changed. > [@ironbender](#): > > Why were there molten metal hot spots for days after a kerosene fueled fire? Apparently, the molten metal was aluminum, which melts at about 650 C. The fire wasn’t kerosene fueled, it was office-supplies fueled - the kerosene just started it going. And in a situation where you have a fire in an underground supply of fuel, which is insulated by the pile and oxygen seeps in relatively slowly, fires burn extremely hot and for a long time. Did you know there are underground fires burning right now, which have been burning for thousands of years? ---
**Author:** ![ironbender](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ba8739/32.png) [@ironbender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ironbender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/158 "2010-04-15T22:11:29Z")
It cast doubt in my mind. I mean one of the planes basically made a 90 degree turn over my hometown of Albany, which is well inland from the Atlantic. The one that hit the pentagon was even further inland than that when it turned. To me it seems clear that that the confusion was caused by the drills, which to me makes the terrorists very lucky. Or as was posted, they knew about the drills, and planned for that day. Which I find hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![ironbender](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ba8739/32.png) [@ironbender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ironbender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/159 "2010-04-15T22:12:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Actually, pictures are to ambiguous, IMHO. What would be nice is documented proof in the form of an expert testifying that there are ‘molten metal hot spots’ that lasted ‘for days after’, and a metallurgist stating that said ‘molten metal’ wasn’t aluminum but instead structural steel. > > -XT I thought Dr. Jones did that. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817/160 "2010-04-15T22:14:04Z")
> [@palindromemordnilap](#): > > However, the OP asks how anyone can possibly believe the government was involved, and this is the kind of thing that gives rise to those ideas. Nonsense. This “kind of thing” provides talking points to those who wish to believe in government conspiracies, for ideological or psychological reasons. It does not give rise to those ideas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-conspiracy-theories/535817.md?page=9)