# 9/11 jumpers: would the Catholic church class them as suicides? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 12, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257 "2008-09-12T13:03:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/1 "2008-09-12T13:03:46Z")
I watched a repeat last night of a UK Channel 4 documentary, The Falling Man. A few tentative identifications were made of the figure in the [well-known photo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man), and they interviewed the family of one of the possibilities. The family were devout Catholics and what particularly interested me was the vehement denial by the daughters that this could be their father, because whatever the circumstances he would never have committed the mortal sin of suicide. They really did believe that their father would have been condemned to the fires of hell if he had indeed jumped… So my question is: does the Catholic church make an exception for taking one’s own life when faced with the certainty of appalling death, or is suicide a mortal sin whatever the circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/2 "2008-09-12T13:52:21Z")
I think the situation could be described as taking one’s own life under duress, and therefore not the definition of suicide. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/3 "2008-09-12T13:52:38Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I watched a repeat last night of a UK Channel 4 documentary, The Falling Man. A few tentative identifications were made of the figure in the [well-known photo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man), and they interviewed the family of one of the possibilities. The family were devout Catholics and what particularly interested me was the vehement denial by the daughters that this could be their father, because whatever the circumstances he would never have committed the mortal sin of suicide. > > They really did believe that their father would have been condemned to the fires of hell if he had indeed jumped.. > > So my question is: does the Catholic church make an exception for taking one’s own life when faced with the certainty of appalling death, or is suicide a mortal sin whatever the circumstances? (I am Catholic.) Catholics believe that failing to take action to save one’s own life is the same thing as intentionally taking one’s own life. The man in question was presented with a choice: either stay put and have a 100% chance of dying or jump and probably die. According to the Church, you are required to do everything you can to save your own life, so he did not commit a sin. The section from [this page](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm) on “Positive and indirect suicide” gives a full explanation. –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/4 "2008-09-12T13:54:38Z")
I don’t have a cite, but the Church has always said that intent is the major factor in determining the sinfulness of an action. So if you run across the street and knock someone down because you’re a jerk who likes hurting people, that’s a sin. If you run across the street and knock someone down because there’s a bus bearing down on them and they don’t see it, it’s not a sin. So if you jump out a window because you can’t face life anymore and want to end it, that’s a sin. If you jump out a window because the room your in is on fire and the pain is agonizing and there’s no other way out, that’s not a sin. Your intent is not to end your life (even if that’s the near certain result of your action), it’s to escape the fire. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/5 "2008-09-12T15:21:04Z")
I’ve always been bothered by people who describe the jumper’s decision-making process in such simple terms: “That fire and smoke are killing me, I am going to jump to escape it.” I think the two most likely scenarios that force someone to **react** suddenly to something that is happening works like this: You inhale and you feel your lungs burn in a way that just about forces you to escape, possibly your mouth throat and lungs are instantly burned, and like someone running from a killer bee nest on a roof, you instantly react and make your jump. or The temps are so high that you are being cooked alive…your skin starts melting/peeling and that instant where it is unfathomable to deal with it, you react and jump. I don’t think the Catholic church would have a problem when you dodge death and fall into death, quite literally, as a human reaction. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/6 "2008-09-12T15:34:28Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > I don’t think the Catholic church would have a problem when you dodge death and fall into death, quite literally, as a human reaction. Exactly. The distinction is intent. If you intend to kill yourself, it’s a sin. If you kill yourself accidentally doing something stupid, it’s probably a sin. If you kill yourself trying to avoid being killed, it’s not a sin. –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/7 "2008-09-12T15:36:57Z")
> [@FlyingCowOfDoom](#): > > (I am Catholic.) > > Catholics believe that failing to take action to save one’s own life is the same thing as intentionally taking one’s own life. The man in question was presented with a choice: either stay put and have a 100% chance of dying or jump and probably die. According to the Church, you are required to do everything you can to save your own life, so he did not commit a sin. The section from [this page](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm) on “Positive and indirect suicide” gives a full explanation. > > –FCOD That’s a far more reasonable stance. I couldn’t believe that the Roman Catholic church would condemn the jumpers as suicides. The attitude of the daughters seemed bizarre (“My father would never have left us willingly, he would never commit suicide”, etc). I don’t think they had any conception of what things must have been like up there. One can only hope that their priest set them right later. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/8 "2008-09-12T15:45:32Z")
This seem to be splitting hairs, if you jump out the window you know you are going to die, period. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingCowOfDoom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyingcowofdoom/32/21776_2.png) [@FlyingCowOfDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingCowOfDoom)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/9 "2008-09-12T15:48:46Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > This seem to be splitting hairs, if you jump out the window you know you are going to die, period. Not true at all. There are several cases of people falling from thousands of feet and surviving. [Cite.](http://www.raoulpop.com/2007/02/14/amazing-survivor-of-parachute-malfunction/) I agree that you can assume you would die, but the minuscule chance of surviving the fall is better than the zero chance of surviving an inferno. –FCOD ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/10 "2008-09-12T15:50:33Z")
I think the Catholic Church has amended its originally very harsh view on suicide. They don’t excommunicate or refuse burial to suicides anymore. I don’t have time to dig out my Catechism, but according to Wikipedia… > [@](#): > > The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that suicide may not always be fully conscious – and thus not one-hundred-percent morally culpable: “Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.” > > The essential context regarding the Catholic Church’s condemnation of suicide is the Church’s absolute insistence on the sanctity of life. It is in this regard, and taking into account the clear deliberation of the act by a thinking person, that the Church regards suicide as being among the gravest sins a person may commit and therefore creating the risk of eternal damnation. However, the commonly-held position of most Catholic theologians is that because suicide is not a rational act but a desperate one, clear deliberation is tautologically not possible for the individual who attempts or succeeds in committing suicide: as such it does not meet the conditions required for wilful sin against God and is to be treated with compassion and not condemnation. In googling, I discovered that the early church did not condemn suicide at all…it didn’t start until 500 AD. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/11 "2008-09-12T15:51:04Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > This seem to be splitting hairs, if you jump out the window you know you are going to die, period. Well, maybe, but _splitting hairs_ is the bread and butter of religious doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/12 "2008-09-12T16:00:36Z")
> [@FlyingCowOfDoom](#): > > Exactly. The distinction is intent. If you intend to kill yourself, it’s a sin. If you kill yourself accidentally doing something stupid, it’s probably a sin. If you kill yourself trying to avoid being killed, it’s not a sin. > > –FCOD I also believe that nowadays, the church is starting to recognize and take mental illness into account, rather than just automatically condemn suicide as a sin. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/13 "2008-09-12T16:03:54Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > This seem to be splitting hairs, if you jump out the window you know you are going to die, period. The point is, No, you don’t. You know staying in a burning, collapsing building will inevitably cause your death. You know jumping out the window will _probably_ result in your death. But you might survive with multiple broken bones. There’s a remote chance you’ll impact something resilient, springy. Yeah, chances are high you’ll die from the fall (well, technically, from the impact after the fall). But in a case like that, gambling on the difference between certainty of death and high probabhility of death is a legitimate exercise of judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/14 "2008-09-12T16:06:32Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The point is, No, you don’t. You know staying in a burning, collapsing building will inevitably cause your death. You know jumping out the window will _probably_ result in your death. But you might survive with multiple broken bones. There’s a remote chance you’ll impact something resilient, springy. Yeah, chances are high you’ll die from the fall (well, technically, from the impact after the fall). But in a case like that, gambling on the difference between certainty of death and high probabhility of death is a legitimate exercise of judgment. I seriously doubt that was the _intent_ of the 9/11 jumpers, though. I strongly suspect they were choosing the relatively sudden and less painful death over the protracted and agonizing one. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/15 "2008-09-12T16:55:40Z")
Yes indeed. I have seen some reports of people trying to hold on to table cloths as they jumped like primitive parachutes, naturally this failed. For those people one could argue were trying to escape. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/16 "2008-09-12T17:10:37Z")
The medical examiner classified all their deaths as [homicide](http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumper_x.htm). These were not people who went to work that morning thinking “I’m g0nna jump out my office window today.” There was no intention of commiting suicide. They were people stuck between a rock and a flaming place, and their only choice was jump or die of smoke inhalation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/17 "2008-09-12T17:19:15Z")
> [@](#): > > They don’t excommunicate or refuse burial to suicides anymore. How does one _not_ excommunicate suicides? A dead person, regardless of how they died, is no longer capable of receiving the Eucharist. About all one can do about a suicide is to speak harshly about them. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/18 "2008-09-12T17:30:17Z")
I wonder how much pain was caused to families of suicide victims from the refusal of a Catholic burial before the CC got more lenient. > [@](#): > > However, the commonly-held position of most Catholic theologians is that because suicide is not a rational act but a desperate one, clear deliberation is tautologically not possible for the individual who attempts or succeeds in committing suicide: as such it does not meet the conditions required for wilful sin against God and is to be treated with compassion and not condemnation. From this reading it is difficult to understand how one could be condemned by killing oneself. This is certainly not the view the Catholic church had in the past. In my own family I had a great uncle who committed suicide and was refused a Catholic funeral, he could not even be buried in the cemetery with the rest of his family members. It caused a great deal of anguish for my great aunt and their children. ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/19 "2008-09-12T17:54:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How does one _not_ excommunicate suicides? A dead person, regardless of how they died, is no longer capable of receiving the Eucharist. About all one can do about a suicide is to speak harshly about them. “Excommuniation” is basically a statement from the church, not actually the denial of the Eucharist. Again from Wikipedia… > [@](#): > > Excommunication can be either ferendae sententiae (declared as the sentence of an ecclesiastical court) or, far more commonly, latae sententiae (automatic, incurred at the moment the offensive act takes place). The excommunicant is still considered Christian and a Catholic as the character imparted by baptism is indelible.[1] Also, interestingly… > [@](#): > > In the Middle Ages, formal acts of public excommunication were accompanied by a ceremony wherein a bell was tolled (as for the dead), the Book of the Gospels was closed, and a candle snuffed out - hence the idiom “to condemn with bell, book and candle.” ---
**Author:** ![TJVM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@TJVM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJVM)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-jumpers-would-the-catholic-church-class-them-as-suicides/463257/20 "2008-09-12T19:10:29Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > If you jump out a window because the room your in is on fire and the pain is agonizing and there’s no other way out, that’s not a sin. Your intent is not to end your life (even if that’s the near certain result of your action), it’s to escape the fire. I think that’s the key point. Obviously, there’s no way to know what happened in each individual case, but from what I’ve read, it’s likely that the people who jumped were being burned alive. In that situation, I think jumping is basically an involuntary action – a reflex, rather than a rational decision. They could no more have stayed in the building, than you or I could hold our hand against a red-hot stove burner and leave it there.