# 9/11 wreckage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567 "2009-01-16T05:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/201 "2009-01-18T08:47:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why do we need the cameras’ evidence when we have witnesses and wreckage that say, yes indeed, a plane crashed into the Pentagon? > > In any case, a plane zipping across the landscape is actually pretty hard to catch on a security camera unless it’s pointed at just the right angle, simply because the plane would go in and out of frame at extreme speed. > > _Are_ there people actually complaining that their tapes were grabbed and not returned? I know a lot of conspiracy sites claim so, but I’d like an independent opinion. hey now we’re getting somewhere! you are right anything travelling more than 2 or 300+ mph will be hard to track on ONE camera ( well a camera on the pentagon may be more advanced than one from a gas station). but there are dozens of cameras that were in the path. and yes, the manager or owner of the gas station directly under the flight path closest to the pentagon gave his account- that within minutes his tape was taken and he didnt even get a chance to see it. however if you research the accounts from employees of the closest Marriot that day, they will tell you otherwise. those tapes were confiscated too. it is not absurd and idiotic to simply point out that we are being denied evidence which frankly, i for one feel we deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/202 "2009-01-18T08:48:00Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > fact: we see what the media feeds us > > fact: much of this is censored > > fact: at first glance (on the news) someone may be unable to tell if a video or pic is real or has been altered > > and lastly, it is fact that there are several cameras surrounding the pentagon, not to mention over route 27, on the marriott, and on local gas stations that surveill the area constantly. johnny from LA: not all cameras focus inside their building- what happened to all these tapes? why werent they released? fact: I saw it live on TV. You think all feeds from all angles were faked? fact: censored? By whom? Edited does not equal sensored. Hundreds of news organizations and private citizens were covering the story in real time. All were censored? By whom? And cite? fact: a live shot? Really? And lastly: those surveillance cameras would be pointing at what they surveil. Unless they were expecting an attack from the Pentagon why would you think that they would be pointing there? I have been near the Pentagon. There is mostly quite a bit of stand off distance from other buildings. The only cameras that would have a chance to show anything would be on just one side. I know from experience that most surveillance systems are barely adequate to show what is in the store. Most don’t bother to show anything outside of the parking lot if outside at all. Why would they? Stop asking questions if you don’t want to hear answers. Try giving some answers. What is the evidence that something other than a plane was used? What happened to the plane if it didn’t hit the building? What happened to the people? For fucks sake why would this have been done? Which business owners have come forward and said they had something recorded that was covered up? They certainly had enough time to check there own tapes before the FBI visited every business in the area. Where are the eyewitnesses that say it wasn’t a plane? Were all the air traffic controllers also in on it? Where is any evidence to support any other theories? Evidence, not questions. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/203 "2009-01-18T08:56:53Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > and yes, the manager or owner of the gas station directly under the flight path closest to the pentagon gave his account- that within minutes his tape was taken and he didnt even get a chance to see it. Bullshit. Unless the FBI was there getting gas this does not make sense. He didn’t get a chance to see it? It takes as much time to rewind a VCR tape as it does to go back to see something recorded from the camera. He didn’t have 30 seconds? If he was right below the plane what does he claim happened? Would you be satisfied if you were shown tapes with nothing on them or pointed in the wrong direction? I doubt it. They would be faked too. The one tape shows a plane. The wreckage and damage point to a hit by a plane. All eyewitnesses say it was a plane. ATC tracked the plane. We have a missing plane and all the passengers. Two other planes were flown into buildings that day. That is not enough to convince you? It is somehow more plausible that it wasn’t a plane? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/204 "2009-01-18T09:06:44Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > fact: I saw it live on TV. You think all feeds from all angles were faked? > > fact: censored? By whom? Edited does not equal sensored. Hundreds of news organizations and private citizens were covering the story in real time. All were censored? By whom? And cite? > > fact: a live shot? Really? > > And lastly: those surveillance cameras would be pointing at what they surveil. Unless they were expecting an attack from the Pentagon why would you think that they would be pointing there? I have been near the Pentagon. There is mostly quite a bit of stand off distance from other buildings. **The only cameras that would have a chance to show anything would be on just one side**. I know from experience that most surveillance systems are barely adequate to show what is in the store. Most don’t bother to show anything outside of the parking lot if outside at all. Why would they? > > Stop asking questions if you don’t want to hear answers. Try giving some answers. What is the evidence that something other than a plane was used? What happened to the plane if it didn’t hit the building? What happened to the people? For fucks sake why would this have been done? **Which business owners have come forward and said they had something recorded that was covered up**? They certainly had enough time to check there own tapes before the FBI visited every business in the area. Where are the eyewitnesses that say it wasn’t a plane? Were all the air traffic controllers also in on it? Where is any evidence to support any other theories? Evidence, not questions. you saw the pentagon crash live? wtc: you saw a dark gray looking airplane which you would never be able to see any airline logos on, ever.. food for thought again censored by.. my grandma? or the govt? one of the 2 has the power and even the mods on this site will tell you national news channels are censored there are hundreds of cameras surrounding the pentagon, not just one of the 5 sides, and just bc you went there doesnt mean you saw all of them if a gas station doesnt record the outside area/ parking lot, why would the tape even be confiscated? if you owned a business you would understand there is no profit in questioning a govt agency. however i have no money to lose here ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/205 "2009-01-18T09:08:37Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Bullshit. Unless the FBI was there getting gas this does not make sense. He didn’t get a chance to see it? It takes as much time to rewind a VCR tape as it does to go back to see something recorded from the camera. He didn’t have 30 seconds? If he was right below the plane what does he claim happened? Would you be satisfied if you were shown tapes with nothing on them or pointed in the wrong direction? I doubt it. They would be faked too. The one tape shows a plane. The wreckage and damage point to a hit by a plane. All eyewitnesses say it was a plane. ATC tracked the plane. We have a missing plane and all the passengers. Two other planes were flown into buildings that day. That is not enough to convince you? It is somehow more plausible that it wasn’t a plane? maybe i shouldve put quotes on “he didnt get a chance to see it”. that would give you a whole different perspective huh? what tape shows a plane? the public was given 5 images in sequence, none of which shows a plane. especially not a B757 ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/206 "2009-01-18T09:14:12Z")
loach: you bring up an excellent point there in your last post: the ATC tracked the plane. yes, they tracked the plane for over 40 minutes. it deviated off the flight path, the cabin audio was shut off, and even norad thought military exercises were going on ( recent accounts elaborate further on this), so they obviously didnt even scramble a jet. if one competent person from norad or the AF came and asked the counter terrorism official that day (dick cheney) should we interecept the plane (when it was 50 miles out), obviously you know what the answer wouldve been. now that is absurd ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/207 "2009-01-18T09:28:48Z")
hey, who is this guy? joe the plumber? ‘Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret. flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam. He is the recipient of the Eisenhower Medal, the George F. Kennan Peace Prize, the President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace, the Society of Military Engineers Gold Medal (twice), six Air Medals, and dozens of other awards and honors. His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He chaired 8 major international conferences’ ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/208 "2009-01-18T09:56:05Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > loach: > > you bring up an excellent point there in your last post: the ATC tracked the plane. yes, they tracked the plane for over 40 minutes. it deviated off the flight path, the cabin audio was shut off, and even norad thought military exercises were going on ( recent accounts elaborate further on this), so they obviously didnt even scramble a jet. if one competent person from norad or the AF came and asked the counter terrorism official that day (dick cheney) should we interecept the plane (when it was 50 miles out), obviously you know what the answer wouldve been. > > now that is absurd There were no jets to scramble. They stopped having interceptors on standby with the end of the Cold War. If there coincidentally happened to be a fighter close by ready to go on some other mission it would not have been loaded. You don’t routinely keep ammo with the equipment without reason. Its one of the basic safeguards against accidents. > [@](#): > > maybe i shouldve put quotes on “he didnt get a chance to see it”. that would give you a whole different perspective huh? Please edit for clarity. I have no idea what you are saying. > [@](#): > > censored by.. my grandma? or the govt? one of the 2 has the power and even the mods on this site will tell you national news channels are censored Even if you think that the government control all US media, newspapers, TV, internet, leaflets left on your car at the mall… are you saying that all media is controlled by the government? Even the foreign press? There is some worldwide media controlling entity? Spectre? And please cite were the news channels are censored. For nudity and some language yes. But prove it is censored for content. 60 Minutes censored _themselves_ due to pressure and fear of lawsuits and not only did it come out, they made a movie about it. > [@](#): > > wtc: you saw a dark gray looking airplane which you would never be able to see any airline logos on, ever.. food for thought again No it is not. Are you implying that the planes that hit the WTC were not the planes that took off with the passengers on them? So all of the airlines and ATC were in on it too? Where are the planes? Where are the people? Why is it more plausible that there was the most convoluted conspircacy in history involved spanning possibly thousands of people and multiple agencies? You would need the Air Traffic Controllers, the airlines, the military, the FBI, the CIA, the NTSB, the FAA, NIST, all major minor and amatuer news outlets from around the world… I probably missed some. Stop asking questions and answer some. What do you believe and why? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/209 "2009-01-18T10:05:30Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > There were no jets to scramble. They stopped having interceptors on standby with the end of the Cold War. If there coincidentally happened to be a fighter close by ready to go on some other mission it would not have been loaded. You don’t routinely keep ammo with the equipment without reason. Its one of the basic safeguards against accidents. > > Please edit for clarity. I have no idea what you are saying. > Even if you think that the government control all US media, newspapers, TV, internet, leaflets left on your car at the mall… are you saying that all media is controlled by the government? Even the foreign press? There is some worldwide media controlling entity? Spectre? And please cite were the news channels are censored. For nudity and some language yes. But prove it is censored for content. 60 Minutes censored _themselves_ due to pressure and fear of lawsuits and not only did it come out, they made a movie about it. > > No it is not. Are you implying that the planes that hit the WTC were not the planes that took off with the passengers on them? So all of the airlines and ATC were in on it too? Where are the planes? Where are the people? Why is it more plausible that there was the most convoluted conspircacy in history involved spanning possibly thousands of people and multiple agencies? You would need the Air Traffic Controllers, the airlines, the military, the FBI, the CIA, the NTSB, the FAA, NIST, all major minor and amatuer news outlets from around the world… I probably missed some. > > Stop asking questions and answer some. What do you believe and why? stop asking questions? you had like 40 question marks here? anyways 1. there were no jets to scramble bc the majority of norad jets were out on “maneuvers” preparing for an event which mirrors what happened yah you dont keep ammo near planes. and gun shops sell beretta 92s w/o rounds. that would defeat the purpose of having a weapon or defense system… did i say the govt controls all US media? (in which case i wouldnt have gotten my info). or did i say they censor national news networks. this is english comprehension 101, if you have a bachelors. if we are going to talk about the foreign press, countries like britain and france (yea france) are releasing previously sensitive documents to the press. research them please lastly, it wouldnt take a thousand ppl to fool the general mass aka middle america. actually about 10 ppl could do it and get off without any negative conseqences. if anyone wants to take this discussion to the next level we can go to the stock market. (this has probably been debated here before but honestly i have not gone through every thread here yet) thanks ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/210 "2009-01-18T10:21:30Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > if anyone wants to take this discussion to the next level Stop being evasive. Stop insinuating. Stop trying to sow doubt. State your theory. We are not taking this discussion to the next level until you start an actual discussion at this level. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/211 "2009-01-18T10:25:43Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Stop being evasive. Stop insinuating. Stop trying to sow doubt. > > State your theory. > > We are not taking this discussion to the next level until you start an actual discussion at this level. what am i sowing? cows? actually i have stated a lot of theories in this thread, which people like you have perpetuated with nothing more than insults and opinions. unless you want to comment on some of the actual points i have made, you are pretty much just another fish in the sea (or brick in the wall for u hippies) Fish, what is your take on the footage of the pentagon crash on 9/11/01? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/212 "2009-01-18T10:31:40Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Stop being evasive. Stop insinuating. Stop trying to sow doubt. > > State your theory. > > We are not taking this discussion to the next level until you start an actual discussion at this level. I agree. You can only speculate what is on the allegedly missing tapes. What evidence, if any, do you have that contradicts the witnesses who saw the plane crash and the photographs of the wreckage that clearly indicate the crashed plane was the hijacked one? Please explain it to us or admit you have nothing. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/213 "2009-01-18T10:35:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I agree. You can only speculate what is on the allegedly missing tapes. What evidence, if any, do you have that contradicts the witnesses who saw the plane crash and the photographs of the wreckage that clearly indicate the crashed plane was the hijacked one? Please explain it to us or admit you have nothing. there is nothing alleged about missing tapes it is simple math, not even algebra: if dozens of cameras are able to scan the path of flight 77 that day, we would have the footage. because there are buildings. businsses. companies. it isnt northeast montana. you are asking me what evidence i have, while im asking why we dont have the evidence? is there a language barrier here? is anyone else reading this??? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/214 "2009-01-18T10:47:55Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > stop asking questions? you had like 40 question marks here? > > anyways > > 1. there were no jets to scramble bc the majority of norad jets were out on “maneuvers” preparing for an event which mirrors what happened > > yah you dont keep ammo near planes. and gun shops sell beretta 92s w/o rounds. that would defeat the purpose of having a weapon or defense system… > > did i say the govt controls all US media? (in which case i wouldnt have gotten my info). or did i say they censor national news networks. this is english comprehension 101, if you have a bachelors. > > if we are going to talk about the foreign press, countries like britain and france (yea france) are releasing previously sensitive documents to the press. research them please > > lastly, it wouldnt take a thousand ppl to fool the general mass aka middle america. actually about 10 ppl could do it and get off without any negative conseqences. > > if anyone wants to take this discussion to the next level we can go to the stock market. (this has probably been debated here before but honestly i have not gone through every thread here yet) > > thanks No more questions because those on this side are able to provide answers. You side step any concrete answers and come up with questions and implications. State your actual position and prepare to defend it. You obviously have never been in the military. The military does not keep ammo with the equipment unless it is in an operation environment. You think every tank is loaded with ammo when it is sitting in the motor pool? Every aircraft in the hanger? No they are kept in something called an ASP (Ammo Supply Point) usually miles from the equipment. Try throwing in some capital letters or making some attempt at grammar before you talk to me about my reading comprehension. What do you mean by censor? Do you mean they keep boobies off the air? Then yes. For content? Prove it. Don’t ask me to research for _your_ cites. State your point, then prove it. It would take thousands to pull off your conspiracy. You would need probably hundreds in the airlines. The 4 planes would need to be flown somewhere. The crews would have to be in on it. If not then other crews would need to be used to get rid of the ones on the plane. The airlines would have had to give access to the planes. Extra planes which apparently had to be used would be flown or rigged somehow. Multiple ATCs would have to be involved to fabricate their stories and change the radar records. The Air Force would have to be in on it. Ever one investigating the incident had to be in on it. Everyone in the Pentagon had to be in on it. A supposed missile just killed a bunch of their coworkers and nobody said anything when someone started sprinkling airplane wreckage around? The only ones to uncover the vast conspiracy are some internet bloggers whose evidence is that some wreckage doesn’t look right? Give me any kind of scenerio in which 10 people could pull of this supposed conspiracy. There is no next level. State your position. What do you think happened? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/215 "2009-01-18T10:54:03Z")
**reef shark** , is it your contention that a plane did **not** impact the pentagon on 9/11/2001? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/216 "2009-01-18T10:56:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > No more questions because those on this side are able to provide answers. You side step any concrete answers and come up with questions and implications. State your actual position and prepare to defend it. > > You obviously have never been in the military. The military does not keep ammo with the equipment unless it is in an _ **operation environment** _. You think every tank is loaded with ammo when it is sitting in the motor pool? Every aircraft in the hanger? No they are kept in something called an ASP (Ammo Supply Point) usually miles from the equipment. > > Try throwing in some capital letters or making some attempt at grammar before you talk to me about my reading comprehension. > > What do you mean by censor? Do you mean they keep boobies off the air? Then yes. For content? Prove it. Don’t ask me to research for _your_ cites. State your point, then prove it. > > It would take thousands to pull off your conspiracy. You would need probably hundreds in the airlines. The 4 planes would need to be flown somewhere. The crews would have to be in on it. If not then other crews would need to be used to get rid of the ones on the plane. The airlines would have had to give access to the planes. Extra planes which apparently had to be used would be flown or rigged somehow. Multiple ATCs would have to be involved to fabricate their stories and change the radar records. The Air Force would have to be in on it. Ever one investigating the incident had to be in on it. Everyone in the Pentagon had to be in on it. A supposed missile just killed a bunch of their coworkers and nobody said anything when someone started sprinkling airplane wreckage around? The only ones to uncover the vast conspiracy are some internet bloggers whose evidence is that some wreckage doesn’t look right? > > Give me any kind of scenerio in which 10 people could pull of this supposed conspiracy. > > There is no next level. State your position. What do you think happened? Why? meh, there are 40 opinions here. you want me to state facts but you cannot take your own advice. what do i think happened??? how many times must i post the same thing over and over? we are being denied evidence. the lack of footage showing flight 77 proves this. this is not an opinion. and what would you qualify as an “operation environment”? lets talk about the USAF here for a minute. if some country were to suddenly airbomb our asses from any angle, would we really have to extract missiles and rounds from some distant location and then load all the jets with them, before taking off? we’d be dead man. im glad youre not in charge of anything the truth is, norad was practicing manuevers and the AF personnel were being denied the chance to intercept flight 77. if i am wrong than the crash wouldnt have happened ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/217 "2009-01-18T10:57:52Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > if dozens of cameras are able to scan the path of flight 77 that day, we would have the footage. because there are buildings. businsses. companies. it isnt northeast montana. > > you are asking me what evidence i have, while im asking why we dont have the evidence? is there a language barrier here? is anyone else reading this??? I don’t understand why you think there should be dozens of cameras. I deal with security cameras very often in real life. The majority of businesses don’t have them. Most that do, don’t have exterior cameras. Those that have exterior cameras usually have a very narrow field of view. There is no need to have it pointing into the air. There is no need for it to be pointing at another building. If a camera did show something it would be dumb luck. We have one typically grainy shot from one camera. There is nothing else. Get over it. How about some actual evidence instead of a supposed missing piece in your mind? If that is all you have, you have nothing. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/218 "2009-01-18T10:58:46Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > **reef shark** , is it your contention that a plane did **not** impact the pentagon on 9/11/2001? algorithm, it is my contention that we, the ordinary civilian public of the united states, do not have the evidence supporting anything. it couldve been a flying pig. the cause of this is what im trying to expose ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/219 "2009-01-18T11:06:21Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I don’t understand why you think there should be dozens of cameras. I deal with security cameras very often in real life. The majority of businesses don’t have them. Most that do, don’t have exterior cameras. Those that have exterior cameras usually have a very narrow field of view. There is no need to have it pointing into the air. There is no need for it to be pointing at another building. If a camera did show something it would be dumb luck. We have one typically grainy shot from one camera. There is nothing else. Get over it. How about some actual evidence instead of a supposed missing piece in your mind? If that is all you have, you have nothing. i dont know how many more times i will have to make the same point. at this rate i will be a charter member here. the majority of businesses dont have exterior security cameras… how is this a fact? where have you worked in your life??? the rest of your post is negated by the fact (reiterated 10x now) that we dont have the evidence. it has been CONFISCATED. if you can tell me that tapes werent taken out of the marriot, route 27 cams, and the closest gas station, then i will gladly have this whole thread deleted, if i could otherwise we would have access to these tapes that day… … ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/220 "2009-01-18T11:17:07Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > meh, > > there are 40 opinions here. you want me to state facts but you cannot take your own advice. what do i think happened??? > > how many times must i post the same thing over and over? > > we are being denied evidence. the lack of footage showing flight 77 proves this. this is not an opinion. > > and what would you qualify as an “operation environment”? > > lets talk about the USAF here for a minute. if some country were to suddenly airbomb our asses from any angle, would we really have to extract missiles and rounds from some distant location and then load all the jets with them, before taking off? we’d be dead man. im glad youre not in charge of anything > > the truth is, norad was practicing manuevers and the AF personnel were being denied the chance to intercept flight 77. if i am wrong than the crash wouldnt have happened No we are not being denied evidence. Of course that is an opinion. Cite. Operational Environment. Iraq. Afganistan. Combat Air Patrols. Yes we would have to move rounds to where they are needed. They are stored in bunkers for safety. That is the way it is. We are expected to get some warning about a threat. Unless Canada is planning a sneak attack there will be some warning. A threat from one of our own airports was not something the Air Force planned for. No one did. During the Cold War there were many alert aircraft. Armed and ready to go. It was very expensive to maintain. This was scaled back drastically until 911. Shit I’m in Iraq and I am not allowed to keep bullets in my gun all the time. Fact? Cite. What manuevers? What was available was scrambled. We will probably never know if what was first scrambled was armed. There was of course confusion. There were thousands of aircraft in the air at the time. It took a very short time for the planes to veer off course and hit their targets. There was no CAP over NYC and DC. For there have been an intercept everything would have had to go perfectly with no confusion on the part of NORAD or the ATC. It didn’t. No conspiracy needed. Please before you go any further: 1. Give a plausible scenerio how a conspiracy of this size could have happened. How many people and from where. 2. What do you think happened? A missile at the Pentagon? A switch of planes at the WTC? Until you answer that we have no idea what you are getting at. 3. Why? Not necessary if you can adequately answer #2 but I am curious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=12)