# 9/11 wreckage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567 "2009-01-16T05:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/261 "2009-01-18T22:39:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Oddly enough, there WAS expert analysis… it is just that you do not accept those experts as being honest. > > We have at least one Boeing worker on the Dope, as well as several pilots who fly large airliners I’m wondering whether it’s worth it to ask their opinion, or if you will simply dismiss them as part of the conspiracy. > Yes. Charring happens in a post-crash fire. It is so unremarkable, in fact, I don’t understand why you even bother to point it out. > If you do not believe it was a B757 then _what do you think it was?_ > “Boeing green primer” my sweet patootie - MOST aircraft primer is green! Boeing does not have some proprietary color and wording it this way makes it sound oh-so-myterious. > It sure looks like crashed airplane parts to me - and yes, I _have_ seen crashed airplanes up close and personal. Even helped haul one off a runway once. Granted, it was a small aircraft but underlines my point that the green primer is nothing particularly special or confined to Boeing. Based on that, I’d say it was _extremely_ unlikely to be “some part of the inside of the Pentagon”. Can we at least eliminate THAT possibility. :rolleyes: > What _other_ airplane crash are “all of these parts and bits” trotted out for public examination? For the most part the public doesn’t have the knowledge or expertise to make a judgment regarding plane crashes. Crime solving is not for amateurs. Sure, amateurs are free to speculate, some do it as a hobby, but crimes are generally solved by experts, not armchair theorists. > Seems pretty straightforward to me that the cause was _the airplane that crashed into the building_. Good lord, haven’t you ever read an accident report before? They’re ALL written in that same style. > _ **Probably because 90% of the world is intelligent enough to make the connection between “airplane hits building” and “hole appears in wall”.** _ > > Your questions have been answered - you refuse to accept the answers. You insinuate there is a vast conspiracy _but you provide no evidence_ while _rejecting_ actual evidence of a conspiracy because… well I don’t know why you can’t accept hijackers crashing a 757 into the Pentagon, or the notion that the US has foreign enemies that might train hijackers. first of all, i was trying to copy the whole page, pictures and all it didnt work. im not the best at that sort of thing. the point of all that is to show you that the 2 or 3 pieces of wreckage, from the whole 757, which didnt vaporize, classified as official evidence, doesnt conclude anything. what other plane crashes are trotted out as evidence? what about yesterday when the media saw a plane lifted out of the hudson. is there a goose conspiracy? 90 % of people would tell you that even before the crash, light poles were knocked down… if the plane was flying that low of course we would have tape. if a wing clipped a pole the plane probably wouldve crashed right there. when a 125 ft diameter plane leaves a 20 ft hole (at best, ck out the pic taken immediately after impact), but then leaves a hole at ring C, doesnt this evidence contradict itself if the pentagon is built so tough like ford? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/262 "2009-01-18T22:51:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I posted that link early in the thread, but **reef shark** choose to ignore it. So now two times i have seen videos, which were supposed to show a plane, not show any hint of a plane. If this post is a troll-type post then I am sorry. I just find it perplexing that this is the only evidence people in this thread can show of a 757. The reason I made this thread was in the hopes of tapping some anonymous resource (like a pilot, or boeing employee) that might be able to provide something I’ve never seen before. That is all, it is not my intention to troll, hopefully I can contribute to other threads in the future given the chance. Thank you. ps caps and punctuation eh ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/263 "2009-01-18T22:56:33Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > So now two times i have seen videos, which were supposed to show a plane, not show any hint of a plane. You have got to be joking. You were asked if showing the videos, even if they didn’t include a plane, would satisfy you. **You said it would**. And now you’re complaining they didn’t show a plane? > [@Loach](#): > > I’ll play your game and agree that tapes were confiscated. Would you be satified if they showed them to you with nothing on it or would you just assume they were fake? How do you refute the evidence that we do have? The wreckage and plane parts. The eyewitness accounts. Anything. > yes, that would be the point of this thread (perpetuated far more than it should have) > [@reef shark](#): > > i would indeed be satisifed is i was shown one of these tapes… You are being dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/264 "2009-01-18T23:01:22Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > how many times, since hoover made it the “federal” bureau, have they confiscated tapes of a plane crash into civilian or military structures? > > here you are assuming the airlines (additionally assuming it was an airline) have a choice in what footage gets released to the public. what they want is irrelevant. My theory for the allegedly missing tapes is the airlines pressure the FAA to not release footage of planes crashing. Your theory for the allegedly missing tapes is that a conspiracy consisting of thousands upon thousands of people is trying to cover up the fact there was no plane. Your theory is stupider by several dozen orders of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/265 "2009-01-18T23:08:44Z")
I have a query. I’m sure I’ve seen footage of a helipad in front of the wing where the plane hit, and was wondering, bearing in mind where it is located, why this area would not have been monitored up the kazoo? It seems as though anyone could have just plopped down in a chopper totally unchallenged. Any CCTV camera pointing in that direction would surely have seen the plane approaching. Or have I got my wings mixed up? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/266 "2009-01-18T23:20:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Prove it. I never saw any actual witness claim it was a missile and I never saw any witness claim that it was a commuter aircraft, so if you are simply going to quote the fictions that CT people invent to get their pages on the internet, then I feel free to dismiss your claims in the same way that you dismiss all the genuine evidence posted because you do not have the capacity to understand it. > > Sorry. That is a cop out. You have repeatedly posted in this thread without providing anything resembling evidence, just claims that you might have read some kook’s site who made a nutty claim. > > If you are not gioing to participate in a genuine debate, then go find a conspiracy forum and nod your head with all the other CT fans. > > Next you’ll be telling us that Oliver Stone “proved” that there was a major conspiracy to shoot JFK. Ok, lets talk about “eye-witness accounts” then (without assuming they could be pursuaded to change their story). > **[9-11 Research: Eyewitnesses Accounts](https://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html)** This is not a “CT” site, most accounts talk about a 737-757. There are some inconsistencies- Dechiaro, Evey, Ford, **Hovis** , **O’brien** , Seibert, Skarlet, Slater, **Wheelhouse** and Wright ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/267 "2009-01-18T23:23:36Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > There are some inconsistencies- Dechiaro, Evey, Ford, **Hovis** , **O’brien** , Seibert, Skarlet, Slater, **Wheelhouse** and Wright Bullshit. If the accounts were identical, you’d be claiming they were all memorized from the same source material. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/268 "2009-01-18T23:29:23Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > They were gathering evidence. They didn’t know whether any of those tapes showed the plane or the impact until after they’d confiscated and viewed them. The vast majority of them showed nothing useful, since security cameras tend to be pointed at the building they are securing rather than into the sky or at a completely different building off in the distance. And the few tapes they found which did show something relevant (such as the pentagon videos, or the Doubletree hotel video) [have been released](http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Pentagon_security_video). > > In order to claim that something mysterious or suspicious is going on, you need to claim that there were other videos in existence that did show something incriminating that have not been revealed. The existence of such videos is an unproven claim on your part. The fact that the FBI seized dozens of videos from around the crash site does not automatically imply that those videos contained information that the FBI wanted to conceal. It is difficult to find a video in existence that shows something incriminating. I was hoping an anonymous source here might be able to do that. You are correct, the evidence of these such videos are unproven, but it is evident that the tapes that were confiscated were never released. This is what i am really questioning here. I really did not want to go into eye-witness accounts, I was trying to get real evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/269 "2009-01-18T23:32:27Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > how about the miles-long approach to the pentagon? couldnt that be surveilled somehow, especially when the plane was flying so close to land? Employees of a Safeway grocery store on Columbia Pike some three miles west of the Pentagon reported seeing a very large plane fly overhead, headed east. Columbia Pike is a four-lane road with no curves between George Mason Drive and the Navy Annex; viewed from a plane, it’s like an arrow pointed at the Pentagon. Buildings along that part of Columbia Pike range from low-rise retail to medium-rise residential. Any video footage confiscated from these locations would have been viewed then returned to the owners. It’s up to the owners whether or not to release the footage. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/270 "2009-01-18T23:35:38Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > This link was posted earlier, perhaps you missed it: [EmpTv.com is for sale | HugeDomains](http://emptv.com/research/loose-change-2#flight-77-wreckage) (note: there is a rather disturbing image of a burnt person there) Thanks for the link. Again we see a burnt rim and universal landing gear/nose cones which could never ID a specific plane. BTW I am not implying that there were no employees in the Pentagon doing their jobs that day. Nor did I ever really say a 757 never hit the Pentagon. I have always pointed to the lack of evidence and what caused this. It does bear mentioning now that it is a tragedy these people lost their lives. What I would really like is to discuss the actions of government officials before, during, and after the tragedies, but this has probably been done here and I will have to sift through those threads first. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/271 "2009-01-18T23:36:33Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > It is difficult to find a video in existence that shows something incriminating. I was hoping an anonymous source here might be able to do that. You are correct, the evidence of these such videos are unproven, but it is evident that the tapes that were confiscated were never released. This is what i am really questioning here. I really did not want to go into eye-witness accounts, I was trying to get real evidence. So far all the tapes mentioned are accounted for and were eventually released, after so many years those anonymous sources would had come forward already. Sucks, but so far you can not produce evidence that supports your ideas, and the physical and witness evidence point still to a passenger plane hitting the Pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/272 "2009-01-18T23:39:44Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > jesus, bc there were dozens of accounts either way, some saying it was a plane, some sayin it was a missile, some saying it was a There is exactly one account of someone claiming they saw a missile hit the Pentagon. Problem is, this account is from one guy who was repeating something he heard two other people say–while in the Pentagon subway station, underground, on the wrong side of the building. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/273 "2009-01-18T23:49:44Z")
Missed the edit window. > [@reef\_shark](#): > > some saying it was a commuter jet There is exactly one account of someone saying they saw a commuter jet hit the Pentagon. Problem is, this guy was in a high-rise in Rosslyn, a couple miles to the north. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/274 "2009-01-18T23:59:35Z")
I was trying to get real evidence. You have real evidence. You were trying to get evidence to support your position. There is no real evidence to support your position. And a plane would have been so much easier than a missile. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/275 "2009-01-19T00:06:15Z")
**the conspiracy is so big that it could never be organized without a whistleblower, were all the investigators in on the theory?** This is a theory that you will hear very often by the people who believe the 911 commission report is gospel. The first rule of a conspiracy is that the fewer people who know, the better the chances are. The more people in on is increases the chances of a whistleblower either for money or conscience. A conspiracy like this could be done involving very few people who have control of the reins. The first thing you do is hire a mercenary of middle easter descent. Give him $10,000,000 in a Cayman Island bank. He is not given the big picture in its entirety. He only knows he is to recruit Jihad extremist, preferably college age students. One call to immigration and they are cleard to come to America. Then you facilitate them getting into college and take flight lessons. Stand down orders are given and no one in that loop knows why, only that their duty is to follow orders given by a superior officer. By keeping things compartmentalized you can contain the amount of exposure. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/276 "2009-01-19T00:07:53Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > this is a good point (btw how bout them cardinals?) Changing the topic via non sequiter is generally frowned upon in this forum. > [@](#): > > how about the miles-long approach to the pentagon? couldnt that be surveilled somehow, especially when the plane was flying so close to land? It COULD be – but it wasn’t prior to 9/11 (whether it is now I don’t know). We were not looking for threats from our own civilian airliners. Even today, most security cameras focus on the interior of businesses or parking lots. What they catch otherwise is largely accidental. With the recent water landing in New York City, the only cameras that seem to have captured the landing were from the city and Coast Guard and were located in areas where they scanned the piers and docks used by the ferries, their primary purpose was NOT to scan for airliners using the Hudson river as a runway. I’m assuming those dockside cameras were installed post 9/11 when we started worrying about our own vehicles being used against us. > [@](#): > > for the 14th time, the mystery is why the fbi would confiscate route 27 tapes, marriot tapes, all NOT showing the actual impact. nobody seems to care about this Maybe I don’t get my panties in a twist because I am somewhat familiar with _other_ crash investigations. It has been routine for some time that the NTSB solicits (even “confiscates” through legal court actions) video tape from businesses in close proximity to a crash _for purposes of investigating that crash_. As an example, in early 2006 a twin engine Cessna crashed in Wheeling, Illinois. The NTSB obtained video from businesses all around the airport in question in hopes of getting images of the crash. [This picture](http://llnw.image.cbslocal.com/0/2006/02/01/175x131/images_sizedimage_031231650.jpg) is the ONLY picture of that crash from all the tapes obtained. The _only_ one. The frames before and after this one on the tape do not show anything identifiable as an airplane. That airplane was moving _much slower_ than the 757 that crashed into the Pentagon. In other words, a B757 is fast enough to zip by a camera in between frames even if the camera happens to be pointing in the right direction. Getting security camera tape from nearby businesses is standard procedure in investigating airplane crashes. You are making much to-do about routine procedures. > [@](#): > > the last part of your post, why dont i care about the people who saw an airplane crash into the pentagon, is bc i see accounts (made less public of course) of people hearing a “whoosh” and thinking its something else. even some accounts of a commuter jet. maybe both ( i think i posted this late last night) First of all even for people who are pilots identifying a low flying airplane from below while it is moving at high speed is difficult - for a layperson it may be impossible. We had a thread that discussed this phenomena in regards to the 9/11 Pennsylvania crash with the input of honest-to-Og pilots, including those who fly large Boeings. If I can find the damn thing I will link to it. Some witnesses undoubtedly had better view than others. Some probably heard/felt a _whooosh!_ and only had the briefest glimpse. Others just happened to be looking at the part of the sky that offered them a clear view. There is nothing mysterious about any of this. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/277 "2009-01-19T00:07:54Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I was trying to get real evidence. > > You have real evidence. You were trying to get evidence to support your position. There is no real evidence to support your position. > > And a plane would have been so much easier than a missile. Do you know what my position is? I think there is a misconception here that I am supporting a “missile” theory, despite the fact that Rumsfeld and other ex-officials have said the same thing several times in fact. Food for thought again. Again, if anyone would like to discuss the actions of norad, the USAF, Dick Cheney and others that day then maybe we could get somewhere. But missiles and eye witness accounts were never my intention here. Or maybe even why we don’t have records of the stock market the next day? Can anyone possibly explain that? ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/278 "2009-01-19T00:07:57Z")
Fascinating. I don’t suppose you have any, say, evidence, to support that? ETA: That’s in response to the…odd, to be polite…theory about the mastermind and the stand down orders and the college students. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/279 "2009-01-19T00:11:14Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Or maybe even why we don’t have records of the stock market the next day? Can anyone possibly explain that? It was a conspiracy by all the traders and regulators to not show up. Or it was just [closed](http://www.thestandard.com/article/0,1902,28960,00.html). Either way. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/280 "2009-01-19T00:13:27Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > ETA: That’s in response to the…odd, to be polite…theory about the mastermind and the stand down orders and the college students. > > Fascinating. I don’t suppose you have any, say, evidence, to support that? Garfield: I don’t suppose you have evidence about the NORAD maneuvers or ATC tracking the plane for 40 mins deviating from the original flight path. Both would be critical in this instance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=15)