# 9/11 wreckage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567 "2009-01-16T05:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/321 "2009-01-19T01:36:59Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > dear alec, > > what explanation is there for the lack of pentagon footage I’ll give you several explanations for free. Pick one. 1. There isn’t any footage because _security cameras aren’t designed to be pointed at the Pentagon._ Security cameras are designed to be pointed at the doors of the building they’re meant to secure. 2. There may be footage but it doesn’t show anything useful: distant, out-of-focus, blurry, inconclusive. 3. A shadowy super-seekrit organization went around to every business on the eastern seaboard and confiscated all of the security footage _within minutes_ of the Pentagon attack, and yet somehow _nobody has stepped forward_ to say “Gee, who stole my stuff?” ---
**Author:** ![Rolken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Rolken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rolken)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/322 "2009-01-19T01:37:45Z")
I’m always amused by how The Conspiracy In Question simultaneously has complete control and no influence over the media. They fed all the networks false video and had open trading on the stock market with no records, and yet we’re supposed to believe the WSJ is printing evidence of the conspiracy? How does that work? Surely a conspiracy of such far-reaching influence would have been able to keep that tamped down. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/323 "2009-01-19T01:39:15Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Actually I have researched this. Even if a black box transponder is turned off, the ATC can still track it on the radar. It doesnt resemble a flock of geese either. **I have been in an actual working control tower - HAVE YOU?** Do you understand that I did not “research” this, I have seen it with my own two eyes? As I laboriously explained, YES, an airplane without working transponder CAN be tracked - _but only on primary radar_. That’s “raw” radar, prone to all sorts of interference and confusion, and most notably _without_ nice, neat labels for the moving blips. That’s why ATC normally works with _secondary_ radar which edits out most of the garbage and labels the blips. It’s soooooooo much easier to deal with. So, do you understand that on primary radar NONE of the airplane-generated blips have labels? That ATC would have to track one unlabeled signal among many? Along with interference of various sorts? _Do you understand that was one of the reasons for grounding legitimate flights?_ So that the _only_ rapidly moving blips on the primary radar screen would be hijacked airplanes? You say you want information. I am giving it to you. I am not convinced you are listening objectively. I am beginning to think you are fishing only for evidence that supports your delusional theories and rejecting the far, far large body of evidence that confirms the official story. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/324 "2009-01-19T01:39:30Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Popular mechanics is the only site listed more than 3 times here. Come with something else. That site has been embarrassed by people who are worth something at their computer. You couls start with every single link on [this](http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=93) list. Please read them all in detail before coming back. Also, you could provide cites for Popular Mechanics having been ‘embarrassed’. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/325 "2009-01-19T01:50:49Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > For the 17th time… > > A tape WOULD exist if it had not been CONFISCATED or even DESTROYED. If it hadn’t, a lay person could research municipal records and find this. This isnt like the JFK assasination when we will actually have more evidence released in a few years. You cannot prove the tapes weren’t destroyed, which would explain why I dont have the tapes in my personal collection. This is a simple logic-based argument which you are perpetuating much longer than need be. _ **What if these alleged tapes NEVER EXISTED IN THE FIRST PLACE?** _ We don’t have them because we didn’t, due to speed and the fact private security cameras are pointed to private businesses and not the Pentagon, capture an image of the airplane on tape AT ALL! You can’t prove that these images _ever existed_. No doubt you will maintain they were destroyed - you STUBBORNLY refuse to consider that _they may have never existed in the first place!_ ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/326 "2009-01-19T01:58:50Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > It is a lot to take in. Why don’t you tell me why it’s relevant? > > You asked where the records are for the stock market for Sept. 12, insinuating that they were covered up or confiscated or that something nefarious was going on. It was closed. Can you not admit you were wrong and that there’s a completely reasonable explanation for why “we don’t have records of the stock market the next day”? The article notes in _multiple_ places that it was closed for several days. > > It. was. closed. There were no records, because it was closed. When it is closed, there are no records. It was closed. Therefore, there were no records. > > This takes about a second-grade education to understand. Do you understand? Do you understand why the market would close? Larger point losses have been documented without the Dow closing. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/327 "2009-01-19T01:59:52Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > For the 17th time… > > A tape WOULD exist if it had not been CONFISCATED or even DESTROYED. If it hadn’t, a lay person could research municipal records and find this. This isnt like the JFK assasination when we will actually have more evidence released in a few years. You cannot prove the tapes weren’t destroyed, which would explain why I dont have the tapes in my personal collection. This is a simple logic-based argument which you are perpetuating much longer than need be. “You can’t prove it wasn’t” is not a logic-based argument. Well, not a sensible one, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/328 "2009-01-19T02:00:09Z")
> [@Rolken](#): > > I’m always amused by how The Conspiracy In Question simultaneously has complete control and no influence over the media. They fed all the networks false video and had open trading on the stock market with no records, and yet we’re supposed to believe the WSJ is printing evidence of the conspiracy? How does that work? Surely a conspiracy of such far-reaching influence would have been able to keep that tamped down. Because not only is the conspiracy big enough to accomplish all of its goals, it’s small enough to keep a secret. It’s a vast, worldwide conspiracy that has compromised all levels of media and government, confiscated dozens of tapes from around the city, planted eyewitnesses everywhere, and yet only two or three people know about it all. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/329 "2009-01-19T02:01:18Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Do you understand why the market would close? Larger point losses have been documented without the Dow closing. Because the two largest office buildings in the world collapsed just a few blocks away? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/330 "2009-01-19T02:02:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > **I have been in an actual working control tower - HAVE YOU?** > > Do you understand that I did not “research” this, I have seen it with my own two eyes? > > As I laboriously explained, YES, an airplane without working transponder CAN be tracked - _but only on primary radar_. That’s “raw” radar, prone to all sorts of interference and confusion, and most notably _without_ nice, neat labels for the moving blips. That’s why ATC normally works with _secondary_ radar which edits out most of the garbage and labels the blips. It’s soooooooo much easier to deal with. > > So, do you understand that on primary radar **NONE of the airplane-generated blips have labels? That ATC would have to track one unlabeled signal among many? Along with interference of various sorts?** > _Do you understand that was one of the reasons for grounding legitimate flights?_ So that the _only_ rapidly moving blips on the primary radar screen would be hijacked airplanes? > > You say you want information. I am giving it to you. I am not convinced you are listening objectively. I am beginning to think you are fishing only for evidence that supports your delusional theories and rejecting the far, far large body of evidence that confirms the official story. If all the planes were deviating off their intended paths, then maybe it would be a puzzle. The fact remains, when you see a blip, with no label (or cabin audio), deviate off the flight path, you investigate it. That would be the atc jobs. The fact remains that flight 77 was tracked for 40 minutes, which basicully nullifies your whole argument. The fact remains that our counter-terrorism officials did nothing to intercept this plane. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/331 "2009-01-19T02:07:10Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > You cannot prove the tapes weren’t destroyed, which would explain why I dont have the tapes in my personal collection. This is a simple logic-based argument which you are perpetuating much longer than need be. For the 17th time, you have demonstrated you do not know what the meaning of the word “logic” is. Nor the word argument, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/332 "2009-01-19T02:09:13Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Do you understand why the market would close? Dude, the [_Space Needle_ closed](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/38496_needle10ww.shtml) after the attacks. The [Sears Tower closed.](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.05.html) Freakin’ [Disneyland was evacuated](http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2007/09/11/what-was-it-like-to-be-at-disneyland-and-or-walt-disney-world-six-years-ago-today.aspx). The [White House](http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=46566) was evacuated. The [Statue of Liberty](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-30-lady-liberty_x.htm) was closed down. Just about every major tourist attraction, just about every major building was shut down. Because _nobody knew where the terrorists would hit next._ So you have two logical alternatives: 1. Every major building and every major tourist attraction in the U.S. was in on the conspiracy. 2. The NYSE building was closed down out of fear they might be next, consistent with the way _everybody else in the damn country was afraid._ You have no particular reason to believe that the NYSE was part of the conspiracy _because they closed._ Every-fucking-body closed. Everywhere. Now here’s some brain exercise. If the White House _organized_ this conspiracy, _why were they afraid of being next?_ ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/333 "2009-01-19T02:10:10Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Do you understand why the market would close? Larger point losses have been documented without the Dow closing. So that’s a “no” to my question, then. Got it. The point loss happened _when it reopened_. On the 17th. Not “the next day”, which is when the “missing records” you were puzzling over were from. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/334 "2009-01-19T02:12:29Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > The fact remains that our counter-terrorism officials did nothing to intercept this plane. OK, I’ll bite. What, precisely, do you believe our “counter-terrorism officials” should have done to intercept the four planes? “Precisely” I said, and “precisely” I mean. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/335 "2009-01-19T02:12:55Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Dude, the [_Space Needle_ closed](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/38496_needle10ww.shtml) after the attacks. The [Sears Tower closed.](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.05.html) Freakin’ [Disneyland was evacuated](http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2007/09/11/what-was-it-like-to-be-at-disneyland-and-or-walt-disney-world-six-years-ago-today.aspx). The [White House](http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=46566) was evacuated. The [Statue of Liberty](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-30-lady-liberty_x.htm) was closed down. Just about every major tourist attraction, just about every major building was shut down. > > Because _nobody knew where the terrorists would hit next._ > > So you have two logical alternatives: > > 1. Every major building and every major tourist attraction in the U.S. was in on the conspiracy. > > 2. The NYSE building was closed down out of fear they might be next, consistent with the way _everybody else in the damn country was afraid._ > > You have no particular reason to believe that the NYSE was part of the conspiracy _because they closed._ Every-fucking-body closed. Everywhere. > > Now here’s some brain exercise. If the White House _organized_ this conspiracy, _why were they afraid of being next?_ Planes are tangible, markets are not… Buildings and tourist sites should have been closed. But people can still make money on a business day regardless of where a plane might go. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/336 "2009-01-19T02:15:31Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > So that’s a “no” to my question, then. Got it. > > The point loss happened _when it reopened_. On the 17th. Not “the next day”, which is when the “missing records” you were puzzling over were from. So it took 5 days to calculate the volume loss… How is this helping your agrument? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/337 "2009-01-19T02:15:35Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Planes are tangible, markets are not… Buildings and tourist sites should have been closed. But people can still make money on a business day regardless of where a plane might go. Potatoes are tubers, begonias are not. Disneyland is full of the powerful mouse conspiracy, terrible money juju if ever big Rain God make storm, take wampum. All country! Dilute, dilute! Look, **reef** , which do you think makes more money? a) THE WHOLE COUNTRY b) one business within the country That is, to put it another way, which is more bread? a) a slice of bread from Loaf A b) loaf A It’s not rocket science, man. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/338 "2009-01-19T02:15:38Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Planes are tangible, markets are not… Buildings and tourist sites should have been closed. But people can still make money on a business day regardless of where a plane might go. There’s this big building where people have to go to make those markets work. They were scared a plane might go there too. Simple enough? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/339 "2009-01-19T02:18:04Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > So it took 5 days to calculate the volume loss… How is this helping your agrument? Do you know what it means to close a market? **No** trades were going on in those five days, because most of downtown New York City was covered in ash. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/340 "2009-01-19T02:19:25Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > So it took 5 days to calculate the volume loss… How is this helping your agrument? What are you talking about? Five days to “calculate” what? The market didn’t open for five days. There was no trading for five days. Therefore, there were no records for five days. Therefore, there were no records for “the next day”, that you were puzzling over. Therefore, you’re not making a whole lot of sense. A) You said “Where are the records for the next day?!” There weren’t any. The market was closed. B) You said “Executives made a bunch of money on that big loss, didn’t they?!” Maybe they did, but that happened when the market reopened, five days later, and has nothing to do with the existence or non- of records from “the next day”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=18)