# 9/11 wreckage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567 "2009-01-16T05:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/21 "2009-01-16T08:59:32Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > that would be the general consensus, and i agree a lot of this site is speculation, > but i think it really boils down to simple math: a boeing 757 with a certain wingspan relative to the diameter of the damage done to the pentagon > > something like newtons 2nd law comes to mind here, every action has an equal and opposite reaction… but who really knows The hole is congruent with the engine to engine span of the plane, the outer wings against the bomb proofed walls of the Pentagon might just as well had been made of paper. Let’s get technical here. Frikkin’ big hunk of metal slamming wall = hole Fragile structure of sheet metal against wall = not hole. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/22 "2009-01-16T09:06:44Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > The hole is congruent with the engine to engine span of the plane, the outer wings against the bomb proofed walls of the Pentagon might just as well had been made of paper. > > Let’s get technical here. > > Frikkin’ big hunk of metal slamming wall = hole > Fragile structure of sheet metal against wall = not hole. interesting, does anyone know what exactly the pentagon walls are made of? if you look at any pictures of the inside damage, there are wooden planks everywhere. im pretty sure the outside is concrete. also there was damage done to the building several layers deep, showing that something can clearly penetrate through several walls (i believe 3 walls) what perplexes me is that there isnt even an outline of where the wings wouldve been. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/23 "2009-01-16T09:13:35Z")
Well…the Pentagon was made of concrete, steel and such. Air planes are generally made of aluminum…and air. They have to be light to, you know, fly and such. Pentagons, by there non-fliey nature don’t have that limitation. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/24 "2009-01-16T09:19:01Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > something like newtons 2nd law comes to mind here, every action has an equal and opposite reaction… That’s Newton’s 3rd Law. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/25 "2009-01-16T09:21:09Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well…the Pentagon was made of concrete, steel and such. Air planes are generally made of aluminum…and air. They have to be light to, you know, fly and such. Pentagons, by there non-fliey nature don’t have that limitation. > > -XT i guess this is the point in the discussion where i would start questioning the pentagon’s nature of being bomb proof and having an actual military defense system protecting it, but that would be another thread and another day 'night all ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/26 "2009-01-16T09:23:58Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > that would be the general consensus, and i agree a lot of this site is speculation, > but i think it really boils down to simple math: a boeing 757 with a certain wingspan relative to the diameter of the damage done to the pentagon > > something like newtons 2nd law comes to mind here, every action has an equal and opposite reaction… but who really knows The pentagon is made of concrete and is squat. The World Trade Center is neither of these things. When you crash an airplane into a solid block of concrete near the surface of the Earth, the airplane quickly turns itself into a single circular panel of aluminum. When you crash it into a very tall thin building made of steel girders that have been bolted together, the whole thing falls apart like tinker toys. ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/qR0f8n10DR4/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/qR0f8n10DR4?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Note the **complete lack of movement of the solid block of concrete** as a chunk of metal is hurled at it at 500 mph. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/27 "2009-01-16T09:28:27Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > interesting, does anyone know what exactly the pentagon walls are made of? The point of impact had [just recently completed renovation](http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/1003/news_1-1.html), including bomb-proofing reinforcement: > [@](#): > > The exterior walls had been reinforced with steel beams and columns, bolted where they met at each floor. Some of these reinforced walls very near the point of impact remained in place for a half hour before collapsing, allowing uncounted hundreds to escape. “Had we not undertaken this effort,” said Evey at a press briefing on September 15, “this could have been much, much worse.” > > … > > The blast-resistant windows were nearly two inches (5 centimeters) thick. Some of them remain remarkably intact and in place adjacent the point of impact. Some were popped out of their frames by the force of the exploding jet fuel, but they fell without breaking or splintering. > > Also on the exterior walls, between the steel columns, the renovation crew had placed Kevlar cloth, similar to the material used for bullet-proof vests. This had the effect of holding together building materials so they wouldn’t become deadly projectiles in an explosion. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/28 "2009-01-16T09:30:24Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > thank you for entertaining this, let me point a few things out, > > ‘Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. “It was absolutely a plane, and I’ll tell you why,” says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. “I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box.” Kilsheimer’s eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: “I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?”’ > > so basically this expert says she picked up parts of the plane, but have you ever seen a picture accurately identifying a Boeing 757? actually there are more pictures out there taken that day which show different planes’ parts there (i am getting that now) How, after the wreckage is shredded and crumpled, could you, as a lay person, determine whether or not a particular part came from a B757 or some other airplane? > [@](#): > > also, if flight 77 was '“vaporized” in the intense fire following the crash, It wasn’t “vaporized”. A lot of aircraft components will burn or melt when exposed to burning jet fuel and become puddles and/or ashes/char/debris, but that’s not the same as being “vaporized”. > [@](#): > > how was it possible to find the human remains that enabled examiners to positively identify the remains of the passengers, but no remains of anyone of arab descent They may have used DNA tissue typing, or dental records assuming jawbones/teeth survived. DNA typing frequently relies on comparison with relatives, and I’d imagine the passengers’ relatives were more cooperative than hijacker relatives half way around the world. Likewise, US investigators are far more likely to have access to the dental records of the passengers than the hijackers. In either case, neither dental x-rays nor DNA will positively identify someone as being “Arab”. DNA \*might \*indicate a Caucasian or middle eastern ancestry, but that matches plenty of people who aren’t Arabs, such as a lot of European Jews, American Jews, Persians/Iranians, Turks, etc. DNA might also misidentify an Arab with African or Asian genetic markers - which, if you look at a map, one could reasonably expect a certain percentage of folks in the Middle East to have such ancestry due to the close proximity of those three regions. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/29 "2009-01-16T09:36:46Z")
You missed the point. The Pentagon didn’t have to be bomb proof (in fact it wasn’t, though the section hit was part of the renovation and so had recently been reinforced). The point is, Pentagons are made of concrete and steel…as opposed to air plane wings which are made of aluminum and air. See the diff? Concrete and steel vs aluminum and air. Ever seen a car after it’s hit a brick wall at high speed? Well cars are much more solid than aircraft wings…though less solid than brick walls. Or Pentagons… Night… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/30 "2009-01-16T09:43:52Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > what perplexes me is that there isnt even an outline of where the wings wouldve been. Take an empty beverage can - soda or beer or whatever. Smash it - set it on the ground and stomp on it as hard as you can. Note that the aluminum can is now a _significantly_ different shape with a MUCH smaller profile. Airplane wings are mostly _hollow_, they’re a sheet of aluminum made into a particular shape. Sort of like that can, but a different starting shape. The airplane that hit the Pentagon was smashed really hard against a solid object. The wings were crushed into a different, smaller shape than they had been, then pulled into the hole left by more solid structures such as the engines and fuselage by any remaining attachments. Thus, what fragments are seem outside are torn and shredded. Composite components may have simply shattered into small fragments without penetrating deeply, or at all. The WTC buildings show a very rough outline of airplanes, but the walls of the Pentagon are much denser than those of the skyscrapers. It’s the difference between the metal in a chain link fence and the brick side of a building. If a car hits a chain link fence the fence will give, crumple or break. If a car hits a brick wall, the car will give, crumple or break, not so much the brick wall. Also, the car will tend to smash down into a very different shape with a much smaller profile. Scale that up for airplane vs. Pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/31 "2009-01-16T09:47:50Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > add a few thousand gallons of jet fuel, which could lead one to question how medical examiners identified human remains to actual people? supposedly the blast expert who showed up was picking up human limbs… If the investigator arrived and was picking up body parts _outside_ the building those parts may not have been exposed to fire. The fire was _inside_ the building. Parts inside might have been been flung away from the areas of most intense fire. Body chunks can be thrown a pretty good distance in airplane crashes After both the _Challenger_ and _Columbia_ shuttles crashes human body parts were found, occasionally still in bits of clothing, and that despite MUCH hotter fires than any on 9/11, not to mention in Columbia’s case falling about 12 miles into solid ground. Small pieces survive better than big pieces. Body parts surviving an airplane crash and subsequent fire is not peculiar, it’s actually somewhat common. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/32 "2009-01-16T10:00:03Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > one last question, nobody here has heard or read about things being shipped to China? Nope. This is the very first I’ve heard of it. > [@](#): > > it just seems that key evidence like black boxes should be somehow available but isnt, compared to passports of the hijackers for instance… Black boxes are designed to survive an airplane crash. That’s one crash. They are not designed to survive the crash, survive hours of intense fire, then survive parts of or entire buildings falling on top of them. You’re asking to survive not one but several major disasters. We got black boxes from the airplane that crashed in the Pennsylvania field - just one airplane crash. The other ones had to survive not just that but prolonged fires and either partial or total building collapses. They didn’t. Nothing mysterious. Black boxes are good, but not perfect. They don’t _always_ survive even one crash, much less further catastrophes. Small, light objects, like passports, can survive disasters that larger, heavier objects do not. The Lockerbie disaster had peoples clothing survive to float down on the town when the people and airplane came down in small pieces, for example. A lot of paper - despite been flimsy and flammable - floated free of the WTC on 9/11 and survived as litter in the streets where the buildings and people did not survive. A passport is a small, lightweight collection of paper which, oddly enough, can survive such a disaster if it is blown free of the immediate crash site before it catches fire. > [@](#): > > its strange i ran a search in this site and there was nothing on “9/11 wreckage” that i saw… Try “9/11 conspiracy theory” next time. We been over this before several times. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/33 "2009-01-16T10:43:11Z")
I have never been able to figure out what the wingnuts have been talking about. Regardless of whatever kooky theory you come up with about the motive behind the attack, why is it hard to believe that a plane hit the Penatgon? Obviously planes hit the WTC. There are four planes full of people with relatives that would miss them that never landed anywhere else. There are multiple eyewitnesses. Where did the plane go? Why use planes in a attack on the WTC but not on the Pentagon? I can see some sort of strange logic behind the WTC theories. There is no logic behind the Pentagon theories. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/34 "2009-01-16T10:59:12Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I have never been able to figure out what the wingnuts have been talking about. Regardless of whatever kooky theory you come up with about the motive behind the attack, why is it hard to believe that a plane hit the Penatgon? Obviously planes hit the WTC. There are four planes full of people with relatives that would miss them that never landed anywhere else. There are multiple eyewitnesses. Where did the plane go? Why use planes in a attack on the WTC but not on the Pentagon? I can see some sort of strange logic behind the WTC theories. There is no logic behind the Pentagon theories. The most common theory I’ve heard is that, while the WTC was legit, the Pentagon attack was a missile - either an enemy missile to be covered up in order not to panic those not In The Know, or a US missile meant to bolster support, or destroy specific archives or whatever. Obviously, those In The Know would tell you more precisely. I’m not in the know of where my own keys are. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/35 "2009-01-16T11:38:20Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > reason this was posted here is im not sure if my sources are correct.. Your sources are not correct. The idea that the wreckage was sent to China and that the Pentagon wasn’t hit by a plane are absurd. (Seriously: you can see footage from a Pentagon parking lot security cam that shows a plane going by, and photos that make it obvious a plane was destroyed on the lawn. What more do you want?) I hope this has been helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/36 "2009-01-16T11:55:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Can you just come out with the whole of what you really want to say now, instead of dragging this all out over the next few pages? Second. What’s your theory, **reef shark**? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/37 "2009-01-16T12:15:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > They may have used DNA tissue typing, … They did. The remains of all five hijackers on the Pentagon plane were identified by a process of elimination. The remains of two of the New York hijackers were identified by DNA workups from FBI work on their possessions, and were immediately removed from the memorial. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/38 "2009-01-16T13:20:52Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > hey all, i tried searching for this, nothing really came up.. > > what happened to all the wreckage (significant materials which could be evidence), from the steel beams in the towers, and the planes? i saw clips of trucks hauling it away under blue tarps, and have heard that a lot was buried in China… > > reason this was posted here is im not sure if my sources are correct.. > > thanks They are not correct. Many pieces were sent around the country as parts of memorials. Many more ended up in the USS New York as the bow. Some was doubtless recycled, but only after it had been inspected. Of course, some of the 911 nutters seem to think lower Manhattan should have been shut down for a few more years while every single piece of steel was carefully labeled like they saw on CSI. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/39 "2009-01-16T13:21:10Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > that is interesting, > > here is a site with legit pics, > > [http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm](http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm) That guy is a fucking idiot. From your “cite” > [@](#): > > Clearly the blue part of the color is wrong and it supports the theory that something made to look like an American Airlines 757 is what actually hit the Pentagon. Also the granularity of the paint is different the AA 757 has a more metallic look to it. Has he never seen an American Airlines airplane in real life up close? Blue paint? What blue paint?\* American Airlines does not paint the main portion of their fuselages, they are left silver. Which will reflect pretty much any color that is nearby. [Cite](http://www.grahamowen.com/images-17/American_Airlines_Super_80.jpg) \*Yes AA paints a blue stripe down the side of the fuselage, but the wreckage in question is from the top of the lettering, nowhere near the stripe. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/40 "2009-01-16T14:45:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Black boxes are designed to survive an airplane crash. That’s one crash. They are not designed to survive the crash, survive hours of intense fire, then survive parts of or entire buildings falling on top of them. You’re asking to survive not one but several major disasters. Point of fact: they did recover the black box from the Pentagon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=3)