# 9/11 wreckage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567 "2009-01-16T05:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/421 "2012-07-02T14:25:17Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > This issue is still not settled. The ‘war on terror’ doesnt look like it will ever end. Surprisingly, Pearl Harbor does connect with 9/11, because both were false flag ops. The Gulf of Tonkin and USS Maine are proven examples now. Almost every major war since the French Revolution can be traced back to the same groups of evil people. Thanks for your input, but this forum really failed me. God bless Not that all four are connected, but the all do have one thing in common: the leaders of our country wanted war, and used these events, which they had no control over, to justify doing what they already wanted to do. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/422 "2012-07-02T15:34:10Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > This issue is still not settled. The ‘war on terror’ doesnt look like it will ever end. Surprisingly, Pearl Harbor does connect with 9/11, because both were false flag ops. The Gulf of Tonkin and USS Maine are proven examples now. Almost every major war since the French Revolution can be traced back to the same groups of evil people. Thanks for your input, but this forum really failed me. God bless It took you three years to think of a comeback, and this is the best you could do? I’ve re-read your OP though and I’m still unclear where you think this is going – or where it has been. Are you back to ‘just asking questions’? The simple truth that, when powerful people ‘want’ a war (for whatever reason – economics, ideology, or malevolence) they will use any available justification to persuade others to support their desire. This by no means proves that 9/11 was deliberately staged to cause a war, let alone serving to identify it as a “false flag op”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/423 "2012-07-02T15:44:11Z")
Belated zombie comeback: “oh yeah? well…BRAINS!” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/424 "2012-07-02T15:44:59Z")
[QUOTE=reef shark] This issue is still not settled. The ‘war on terror’ doesnt look like it will ever end. Surprisingly, Pearl Harbor does connect with 9/11, because both were false flag ops. The Gulf of Tonkin and USS Maine are proven examples now. Almost every major war since the French Revolution can be traced back to the same groups of evil people. Thanks for your input, but this forum really failed me. God bless [/QUOTE] Well, I’m sure we are all glad you resurrected this old zombie thread where you failed to make a point the first time to let us know that we failed you (i.e. we failed to reinforce your patently ludicrous and evidence lacking claims). That’s a good thing, as had we not failed you we’d have failed ourselves and all the lurkers out there who might be on the fence about this issue. Happily, that didn’t happy. Did you ever figure out how planes are different then Pentagons? You never replied, and it has been several years, so hopefully you’ve been mulling it over and have reached at least some tentative conclusions. The key is the whole ‘concrete and steel’ verse ‘aluminum and air’ thingy. I hear the Chinese are using all that material from the WTC to build their new flying air craft carriers and armored panda bears. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/425 "2012-07-02T15:45:55Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Pearl Harbor does connect with 9/11, because both were false flag ops. The Gulf of Tonkin and USS Maine are proven examples now. They aren’t, and the bit about “evil people” sounds like grade-A conspiracy theory nuttery. I await your reply in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/426 "2012-07-02T17:51:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He’s actually the poster who started the thread. My point was that it’s a three year old thread that got revived by someone who’s been a member here the whole time. That **reef shark** could have just posted his nonsense three years ago, instead of yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/427 "2012-07-02T17:55:36Z")
He had to keep moving or he’d die. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/428 "2012-07-02T18:00:11Z")
Do you know what “false flag” means? [False flag (aka Black Flag) operations are covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by other entities.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) It was actually Japanese airplanes and ships that attacked Pearl Harbor, and there was no attempt made to disguise the fact that they were Japanese. So Pearl Harbor was not a false flag operation. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/429 "2012-07-02T19:22:59Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > This issue is still not settled. The ‘war on terror’ doesnt look like it will ever end. Surprisingly, Pearl Harbor does connect with 9/11, because both were false flag ops. The Gulf of Tonkin and USS Maine are proven examples now. Almost every major war since the French Revolution can be traced back to the same groups of evil people. Thanks for your input, but this forum really failed me. God bless It’s 100% certain Pearl Harbor was not a “false flag” op. By including it, you’ve weakened your argument (you had a point with Gulf of Tonkin). ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/430 "2012-07-02T19:27:45Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It was actually Japanese airplanes and ships that attacked Pearl Harbor, and there was no attempt made to disguise the fact that they were Japanese. So Pearl Harbor was not a false flag operation. Hah! Shows what you know, I bet you think it was airliners that hit the world trade center too. Everyone knows it was graviton beams from Nazi spy satellites orbiting the moon. The airplanes were just holograms! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/431 "2012-07-02T19:39:24Z")
This thread _ **is** _ 9/11 wreckage! Possibly somebody already said that - I haven’t reread the thread to check. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/432 "2012-07-02T19:45:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Do you know what “false flag” means? > > [False flag (aka Black Flag) operations are covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by other entities.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) > > It was actually Japanese airplanes and ships that attacked Pearl Harbor, and there was no attempt made to disguise the fact that they were Japanese. So Pearl Harbor was not a false flag operation. I thought a Blag Flag operation had to do with insecticide? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/433 "2012-07-02T20:00:35Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > (you had a point with Gulf of Tonkin) No, he didn’t. It’s pretty clear what happened with the Gulf of Tonkin, and it wasn’t premeditated. Just tense nerves, mistakes due to bad weather, and jumping to conclusions. Johnson wanted to go to war, and he used the early, fog-of-war reports as his justification. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/434 "2012-07-02T20:12:18Z")
And the Gulf of Tonkin wasn’t a false flag operation either. It was a “made up” operation. For the Gulf of Tonkin to be a false flag operation, agents of the United States would have had to really attack the USS Maddox while pretending to be agents of North Vietnam, in order to trigger a war. Instead, what happened was that the crew of the Maddox thought they might be under attack from North Vietnam, but it turned out they weren’t. But the non-attack was used as a pretext for escalating the war anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/435 "2012-07-02T20:36:30Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I thought a Black Flag operation had to do with insecticide? 😉 No, I think what he’s trying to say is that 9/11 was actually masterminded by Henry Rollins. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/436 "2012-07-02T20:39:12Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I thought a Blag Flag operation had to do with insecticide? 😉 And a black flag raid is where they use two different insecticides. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/437 "2012-07-02T20:43:02Z")
What, in a nutshell (no pun intended), is the sequence of events that the 9/11 truthers think happened: Did planes crash into the WTC or were 10s of thousands of New Yorkers just hallucinating? It they weren’t planes, what happened to the missing planes and all the people that were on it? Why wasn’t crashing two planes full of fuel into the WTC and killing hundreds of people enough to justify war with Iraq? Was it really necessary to blow up the WTC as well? If planes hit the WTC, why did they use a missile to hit the Pentagon? What happened to the other missing planes and their passengers? I can somehow see someone thinking the CIA plotted the 9/11 hijackings: implausible but possible. But the bit about pre-wiring explosives in the WTC, and missiles, and missing planes is not just whack-a-doodle, it’s moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/438 "2012-07-02T21:25:36Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Do you know what “false flag” means? > > [False flag (aka Black Flag) operations are covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by other entities.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) > > It was actually Japanese airplanes and ships that attacked Pearl Harbor, and there was no attempt made to disguise the fact that they were Japanese. So Pearl Harbor was not a false flag operation. Not to mention that they had other military operations coordinated with the Pearl Harbor attack, which would be quite clever if we did it. And FDR wanted to concentrate on the Germans, which he did. If he were creating a false flag attack he would have the Germans as the culprits. The usual conspiracy theories around Pearl Harbor were that we knew about it and did nothing in order to get into the war - which isn’t false flag either. This is nuttery well beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/439 "2012-07-02T21:34:29Z")
[QUOTE=fumster] Did planes crash into the WTC or were 10s of thousands of New Yorkers just hallucinating? [/QUOTE] Yes. And no. Possibly maybe as well. 9/11 Truthers aren’t unified on their various theories. There are various factions that range from simply stupid to batshit insane, and everything in between (plus, the ones who probably know better and are doing this for the attention, or don’t know better because they are ignorant gets but still do it for the attention). The key theme wrt the WTC is that the buildings were brought down in a ‘controlled demolition’. Whether a plane incidentally hit the buildings or was made up is incidental to that central ‘fact’. That the collapse started that the ‘purported’ impact site is meaningless to them as well (just means the military was using the really good shit to bring the buildings down…or something). > [@](#): > > Why wasn’t crashing two planes full of fuel into the WTC and killing hundreds of people enough to justify war with Iraq? Was it really necessary to blow up the WTC as well? There are various factions that think different things. Some I’ve heard think there were sooper secrit documents and stuff (maybe key people) in several of the buildings that needed to be taken out. Some just don’t get that far in…it’s enough for them that Bush et al did it, don’t bother them with trivial details as to why or even how, as they are irrelevant. BUSH, presumably, knew why and that’s good enough for them. > [@](#): > > If planes hit the WTC, why did they use a missile to hit the Pentagon? What happened to the other missing planes and their passengers? Again, there are different schools of, um, thought on this one within the nutball Truther movement. The biggest thing here is that you are asking for logical details concerning a completely illogical and frankly crazy theory, so you are going to ultimately be disappointed…or rolling on the floor laughing at the convoluted explanations. > [@](#): > > I can somehow see someone thinking the CIA plotted the 9/11 hijackings: implausible but possible. But the bit about pre-wiring explosives in the WTC, and missiles, and missing planes is not just whack-a-doodle, it’s moronic. For a time there were two main schools of thought in the Truther community…IIRC, it was something like the Let it Happen school and the Made or Make it Happen school. The Made it Happen(tm, arr) folks eventually won out, as they were a lot crazier and their bill boards were better and they shouted louder and much more fervently. Yeah, at the remote end of the plausibility scale the US government could have been aware that the hijackings were going to take place, and that such an attack would forward some neo-Con political agenda so they just let it roll to see what happened (mind, this is still pretty implausible and would have still entailed many people being in on it…people who haven’t come forward to expose the government for letting several thousand Americans die). -XT ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567/440 "2012-07-02T21:39:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Not to mention that they had other military operations coordinated with the Pearl Harbor attack, which would be quite clever if we did it. And FDR wanted to concentrate on the Germans, which he did. If he were creating a false flag attack he would have the Germans as the culprits. **Bluto** : What? Over? Did you say “over”? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! **Otter** : [to Boon] Germans? **Boon** : Forget it, he’s rolling. Maybe Bluto knew the truth! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11-wreckage/481567.md?page=23)