# 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099 "2012-07-13T12:46:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/201 "2012-07-19T20:54:17Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > If you all want to twist that into me saying that FDNY saw that the buildings were wired for explosives than so be it. That’s exactly what you wrote. And I notice you haven’t explained how the explosives got into the building or how all the equipment survived the plane impact, and you haven’t explained the discrepanies between the WTC collapse and actual demolitions. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/202 "2012-07-19T21:05:43Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > that the fact that the eyewitnesses on the grround levels don’t really describe anything like a massive fireball coming out of the elevator shafts > > :snip: > > The mantainance man really sticks out. I belive he was in the sub-basment. His account sounds like expolsives to me. Except the original eyewitness account of William Rodriguez - before speaking to Alex Jones and attempting to sue the Bush Administration - was that his maintenance co-worker got burned by a fireball in the sub-basement service elevator shaft. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/203 "2012-07-19T21:07:36Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > There were also reports of explosions like you would hear in, you know, a building on fire. > > Either way, sleazy misquoting by truthers does not make the FDNY members agree with you. Feel free to go and ask them if you don’t believe me. I’m not the one misquoting people here, and and I don’t really agree if NYPD agrees with me or not in 2012, almost 11 years later and everything that has happened since. I provided my links to back up why some of the things that happened on that day could be seen as evidence of demolition. You can dismiss them, attack them and yes misquote me but they still stand. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/204 "2012-07-19T21:07:49Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Ok, I see the game we’re playing here. > > I said **I** believe the buildings were wired. I believe that because I saw the eyewitness accounts of secondary explosions at ground level and below by people including FDNY. > > If you all want to twist that into me saying that FDNY saw that the buildings were wired for explosives than so be it. However you try to contort it, you are using quotes (out of context) from the FDNY to support to your claims of a wired building. Even with the weasel words you use the implication you are making is that the experience and expertise of the FDNY supports your allegations. That is wrong however you try to slip out of it. > [@](#): > > I think that most message board readers can plainly see that is not what I said. Do the lurkers support you in email? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/205 "2012-07-19T21:10:30Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’m not the one misquoting people here, Yes, you are. Or rather the people whose videos you have linked to did so. > [@](#): > > and and I don’t really agree if NYPD agrees with me or not in 2012, almost 11 years later and everything that has happened since. They didn’t agree with you in 2006, when the troofer movement was at its peak. > [@](#): > > I provided my links to back up why some of the things that happened on that day could be seen as evidence of demolition. But they are not, they are simply comments about explosions and loud noises that are not to be unexpected in a large building fire. > [@](#): > > You can dismiss them, attack them and yes misquote me but they still stand. No. They most certainly do not. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/206 "2012-07-19T21:10:51Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Do the lurkers support you in email? And lots of PMs, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/207 "2012-07-19T21:17:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can someone make up a list of the last 5 or so threads we’ve done on this subject, please? Here’s one I started in 2008 when the NIST report on the collapse of WTC7 came out. > **[New NIST Report On WTC 7 - Change Anybody's Mind?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=480542)** > > (Inspired by the Flight 800 thread) After a three year study, here’s links to NIST’s report: http://www.nist.gov/public\_affairs/releases/wtc082108.html Executive summary: Fires weakened structural members which collapsed, resulting in... For **split p&j** , I would recommend reading that thread (and I’ll see if I can dig up some of the others). Many, many, many (MANY!) of the same arguments have been raised, examined and thoroughly debunked over and over and over again. You will find a lot of that stuff in the NIST report (linked in the very first post of that thread) and the multiple 9/11 threads we have done here. And I’ll ask you the same question I’ve asked all the other folks who say it looks like controlled demolitions, or that “buildings don’t collapse that way”, etc - what is your education or work experience in any related field that lets you make that statement? For example, do you do heavy construction, work in explosive demolition, have a background in structural engineering, architecture or any other related area? I’ve got a BS and MS in structural engineering with a heavy emphasis on steel and concrete engineering, from one of the top CE schools in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/208 "2012-07-19T21:20:24Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Yes, I am. Nowhere in that quote do I see myself saying that FDNY saw the buildings were wired for explosives. > [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I think I can say for sure the basements were wired in both buildings, just from eyewitness accounts, including NYFD. No further questions, Your Honor. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/209 "2012-07-19T21:28:22Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Easy answer to that. The planes were mis-direction. Anything that happened after the planes hit didn’t really matter. > > Even if explosives in the strike area went off too soon or not at all, it didn’t really matter, because the rest of the building was wired anyway. > > I think I can say for sure the basements were wired in both buildings, just from eyewitness accounts, including NYFD. I just quoted myself. Where in this do I say FDNY _saw_ the buildings were wired. Remember this post was part of a response where some claimed that none of the signs of controlled demolition were present, such as explosions, light flashes ect. In fact, eyewitnesses saw and heard all these things, yes including the NYFD, according to the video shot on _the same day_ Also, I don’t have to account for anything. I don’t have, nor do I need an alternate theory for this conspiracy. I can, however, draw my own conclusions. The offical story is complete BS. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/210 "2012-07-19T21:32:59Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I just quoted myself. Where in this do I say FDNY _saw_ the buildings were wired. The last sentence indicates that based on FDNY witnesses, you concluded the building was wired for explosives. Did you use the exact word “see” or “saw” or any variant? No, but that’s mere pedantry. Maybe that wasn’t your intent. But that’s on you, not on everybody else for reading the words you put down, rather than reading your mind. Engage in semantics arguments if you want, but you’re not making any sort of case for a controlled demolition in any case. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/211 "2012-07-19T21:33:22Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I can, however, draw my own conclusions. The offical story is complete BS. My conclusion - so are all your “arguments.” ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/212 "2012-07-19T21:33:54Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > Here’s one I started in 2008 when the NIST report on the collapse of WTC7 came out. > > [New NIST Report On WTC 7 - Change Anybody's Mind? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=480542) > > For **split p&j** , I would recommend reading that thread (and I’ll see if I can dig up some of the others). Many, many, many (MANY!) of the same arguments have been raised, examined and thoroughly debunked over and over and over again. You will find a lot of that stuff in the NIST report (linked in the very first post of that thread) and the multiple 9/11 threads we have done here. > > And I’ll ask you the same question I’ve asked all the other folks who say it looks like controlled demolitions, or that “buildings don’t collapse that way”, etc - what is your education or work experience in any related field that lets you make that statement? > > For example, do you do heavy construction, work in explosive demolition, have a background in structural engineering, architecture or any other related area? I’ve got a BS and MS in structural engineering with a heavy emphasis on steel and concrete engineering, from one of the top CE schools in the country. Yes of course, the classic argument. Kind of like if your not a solider, you can’t comment on war. Not really suprised by this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/213 "2012-07-19T21:35:34Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I just quoted myself. Where in this do I say FDNY _saw_ the buildings were wired. > > Remember this post was part of a response where some claimed that none of the signs of controlled demolition were present, such as explosions, light flashes ect. > > In fact, eyewitnesses saw and heard all these things, yes including the NYFD, according to the video shot on _the same day_ > > Also, I don’t have to account for anything. I don’t have, nor do I need an alternate theory for this conspiracy. > > I can, however, draw my own conclusions. The offical story is complete BS. Can you show the a video of a controlled demolition where the building collapsed from the top down? ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/214 "2012-07-19T21:36:15Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Not really suprised by this. Welcome to the club. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/215 "2012-07-19T21:37:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No further questions, Your Honor. To be fair, he technically isn’t saying that the FDNY reported that the buildings were wired for explosives, but he’s relying heavily on hand waving and insinuation to imply that his sources are unimpeachable and that given what they reported, there’s no other conclusion but that the buildings were wired for explosives. The problems with that include: [ul] [li]No one at in the FDNY said what he thinks they said[/li][li]What the members of the FDNY actually said goes against the idea of any explosives in the buildings[/li][li]Even if members of the FDNY said what he thinks they said (and they didn’t), it wouldn’t support the idea that the buildings were wired for explosives[/li][li]All the other evidence is unanimous that explosives couldn’t have been involved[/li][/ul] So, I’ll give him a .5/10 for effort. At least he used capital letters and punctuation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/216 "2012-07-19T21:37:41Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Yes of course, the classic argument. Kind of like if your not a solider, you can’t comment on war. That’s an argument about experience, not technical expertise. And not that it matters much, but this excuse would have been more effective if you’d trotted it out a couple of pages ago instead of waiting until after people debunked your comments about the collapse resembling explosive demolition or requiring explosives on every level. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/217 "2012-07-19T21:38:04Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Yes of course, the classic argument. Kind of like if your not a solider, you can’t comment on war. You can comment on it. Doesn’t make you right. If I want treatises and critiques of military strategy, I’m going to the generals and not the grunts. If the generals all say the same thing, you need some firm evidence to contradict it. The point is that all the people with any actual expertise contradict your arguments. Extraordinary claims, i.e. claims that contradict what all the experts say, require extraordinary evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/218 "2012-07-19T21:39:23Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Yes of course, the classic argument. Kind of like if your not a solider, you can’t comment on war. Thing is, you aren’t talking like ‘just a non-soldier commenting on war’, you’re talking like a wannabee Green Beret who says he would have solved the war Iraq using ninja powers and moves he learned by playing Modern Warfare 3. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/219 "2012-07-19T21:41:28Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I don’t have to account for anything. You don’t _have_ to but your accounting for at least the following would go a long way toward demonstrating that you’ve considered everything in good faith rather than just whatever you think happens to agree with you. > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > > [@Marley23](#): > > > > how did all of this stuff get into two of the biggest office towers in the world with nobody noticing? > > The bomb-sniffing dogs in particular, one of which was still on duty in the basement when the towers fell. > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > 7 not only fell unevenly but went in opposite directions at nearly the same time. The southern face went south & west, into the bottom floors of the AT&T building while the northeast corner went northwest and fell on the CUNY building across the street. > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > [T]he survivors from Stairwell B said nothing about hearing explosions, just the sounds of the building collapsing above them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/220 "2012-07-19T21:41:35Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The point is that all the people with any actual expertise contradict your arguments. Extraordinary claims, i.e. claims that contradict what all the experts say, require extraordinary evidence. ..and the expertise to know what such evidence should look like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099.md?page=12)