# 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099 "2012-07-13T12:46:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/321 "2012-07-20T02:39:14Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’ll give you a little background. I was 29 on 9/11, about to turn 30 in a few months from then. > > At first, I believed everything I was told. Really, I was just like you guys, ready to attack any one who thought different. > > Right from the first day though, I knew people who were asking questions. Just simple little questions that anybody would ask. > > Like, we spend all this money on miltary to protect us. Where were they that day? Oh yea, um, they scambled all the jets out into the middle of nowhere that day. > > Oh, and ATC didin’t know what the fuck was going on because there were hijacking drills going on that day. They had no clue that the drill went live. Some say all this, this most basic of things was incompatance. If that’s the case, why was no fired? > > After some of these seeds were palnted, I started doing my on research. The things I found were ugly, and just lead to more questions. > > Here I am today, 40 years old. Yes, I’ve been lurking on SDMB for years, trying to stay out of the 9/11 treads that pop up from time to time. > > The offical 9/11 story, to me, is just straight bullshit. I don’t know what happenend on that day, and now it really does not matter. We are all stuck in the aftermath, and the blood is on all of our hands. > > All I can do now is ask my questions, the same that were asked of me 11 years ago. You have asked not one new question this entire time, and they were all answered in the previous threads. Unless this is a matter of your ego telling you that all answers must be directed at you personally, otherwise they don’t count, i suggest you go back and read those all threads you avoided…and quit wasting our time. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/322 "2012-07-20T02:47:01Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Like, we spend all this money on miltary to protect us. Where were they that day? Oh yea, um, they scambled all the jets out into the middle of nowhere that day. Oh yea, um, the hijacked planes _had their transponders turned off!_ Where where those scrambled jets supposed to go? > [@](#): > > Oh, and ATC didin’t know what the fuck was going on because there were hijacking drills going on that day. They had no clue that the drill went live. ATC wouldn’t care because the drill was _military_, which uses a completely different system. Perhaps you mean NORAD had no clue? At least until it was confirmed that it wasn’t part of any drill. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/323 "2012-07-20T02:53:47Z")
Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. Video shows that the fires in this building were no where near as intense a the AON Center, which still stands to this day and burned more than twice as long. The steel truss explainaiton is just not good enough. I can pull just as many cites saying that there is no way the building could collaspe that way. In fact, most of your own experts say they have no clue why 7 collasped. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/324 "2012-07-20T02:59:04Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Oh yea, um, the hijacked planes _had their transponders turned off!_ Where where those scrambled jets supposed to go?ATC wouldn’t care because the drill was _military_, which uses a completely different system. Perhaps you mean NORAD had no clue? At least until it was confirmed that it wasn’t part of any drill. Listen to the tapes. ATC inquried right away, a background voice in the same room asks if it’s a drill. Mass confusion. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/325 "2012-07-20T02:59:50Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. > > Video shows that the fires in this building were no where near as intense a the AON Center, which still stands to this day and burned more than twice as long. > The steel truss explainaiton is just not good enough. I can pull just as many cites saying that there is no way the building could collaspe that way. > > In fact, most of your own experts say they have no clue why 7 collasped. :rolleyes: No most “experts” do not dispute it. Umm… we do know why it collapsed. The fact that it stood so long is pretty freak’n amazing. It’s funny, something happened here in the US in regard to science. I want to believe that at some point, people would have been in astonishment that the buildings stood as long as they did, and maybe heep praise on those engineers and designers responsible. Instead, we get inept reasons for why they actually fell down. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/326 "2012-07-20T03:02:20Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Listen to the tapes. ATC inquried right away, a background voice in the same room asks if it’s a drill. > > Mass confusion. You’ve only quoted one of my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/327 "2012-07-20T03:02:33Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. “Hey everyone! Look over there!” > [@](#): > > Video shows that the fires in this building were no where near as intense a the AON Center, which still stands to this day and burned more than twice as long. The fires were quite intense. Burned for hours, and most _importantly were not fought_ > [@](#): > > The steel truss explainaiton is just not good enough. Why? Because you, the knower of all things engineering say so? > [@](#): > > I can pull just as many cites saying that there is no way the building could collaspe that way. Not by experts and not with anything resembling peer review, professional analysis, etc. > [@](#): > > In fact, most of your own experts say they have no clue why 7 collasped. In fact, that is objectively untrue. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/328 "2012-07-20T03:06:09Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > “Hey everyone! Look over there!” > > The fires were quite intense. Burned for hours, and most _importantly were not fought_ > > Why? Because you, the knower of all things engineering say so? > > Not by experts and not with anything resembling peer review, professional analysis, etc. > > In fact, that is objectively untrue. If I say what I want to say right now, then I get banned. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/329 "2012-07-20T03:06:17Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. The damage wasn’t minor. It appeared minor in some video footage, but others showed the whole building buckled. > [@](#): > > The steel truss explainaiton is just not good enough. I can pull just as many cites saying that there is no way the building could collaspe that way. I bet you could - but so far I think every one of your cites has either been wrong or distorted. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/330 "2012-07-20T03:06:25Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Listen to the tapes. ATC inquried right away, a background voice in the same room asks if it’s a drill. And? > [@](#): > > Mass confusion. Unexpected events do cause confusion. I’d like to know what the military in its 2001 state of readiness was supposed to do, exactly? I doubt that pilots at the equivalent ready state of British pilots during the Battle of Britain would have been able to arm, take off and intercept in time. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/331 "2012-07-20T03:12:38Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Listen to the tapes. ATC inquried right away, a background voice in the same room asks if it’s a drill. > > Mass confusion. Can we see your professional engineers’ degree and your civil and structural engineering experience please? Otherwise you are blowing smoke out your ass. You have no credentials, no experience, no background, and no basis for your argument. You are ill-informed and ignorant. You are Archie Bunker with an intellectual problem on a bad day. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/332 "2012-07-20T03:23:48Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > You are Archie Bunker with an intellectual problem on a bad day. Since this discussion is going around in circles, I think this will be the last time I make this announcement: no more insults. I will close the thread if this continues. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/333 "2012-07-20T03:42:39Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. > > Video shows that the fires in this building were no where near as intense a the AON Center, which still stands to this day and burned more than twice as long. > The steel truss explainaiton is just not good enough. I can pull just as many cites saying that there is no way the building could collaspe that way. > > In fact, most of your own experts say they have no clue why 7 collasped. Okay. So now you’ve given up on the collapse of the main WTC buildings 1 and 2 being from demolition charges? The ones that the secret team had to put on every level of the building so they could make it collapse at the exact point that the planes hit? Now you’re focusing on WTC 7, and why it collapsed. You seem to think that since you don’t believe the official explanation by scientists and engineers, that therefore it follows that it must have been a complex hoax by demolition experts. The question that has been asked before by others in this thread is… Why? What would possibly have been the point? Picture this scenario: Crack Team Leader: “Okay men, you’re all demolition experts, and have been prepped on how to sneak into buildings without being noticed, avoiding security and measures designed to foil people from sneaking explosives into buildings. You’re a crack team, prepped for this task. We’re going to put explosives into WT7 and bring it down.” Team Member: " So we detonate the charges and WT7 comes down. Why are we doing this again?" CTL: “Your job is not to ask questions. Just do as you’re told” TM: “OK boss. How will we know when to detonate?” CTL: "After a couple of planeloads of terrorists slam fully loaded planes into WT 1 and WT2, causing massive damage and fires to WT7. TM: “Wait, what now? How do you know this?” CTL: “Never mind that. I just know.” TM: "How do you know that WT7 will be damaged? CTL: “Never mind that. I just know.” TM: “How do we make sure that all the evidence of demolition is covered up? It’s gonna be pretty obvious to investigators afterwards” CTL: “Never mind that. It will be taken care of by our second secret strike force” TM: "What’s the point of this again? Are we helping the terrorists? If WT1 and WT2 are taken out, what’s the big deal with us blowing up WT7? CTL: "Never mind that. It’s a secret. Someone wants that tower down, that’s all you need to know. PS It is spelled “collapsed”, NOT collasped. Thank you for your attention to this detail. " ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/334 "2012-07-20T03:55:08Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. There exists video footage in which a firefighter can be heard talking about fires on several floors. Fires which went unfought for over six hours because there was no water pressure. > [@](#): > > It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. Really? [Then what’s this big, black mark?](http://www.debunking911.com/wtc7gash.jpg) [It wasn’t built that way](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_j1WCY4T_2yI/SERODLaeSQI/AAAAAAAAC6U/N_uY2TewfsU/s640/wtc7_tall1.jpg). > [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Listen to the tapes. ATC inquried right away, a background voice in the same room asks if it’s a drill. I’ve heard the tapes. Boston ATC called DoD about what was going on and Tech. Sgt. Jeremy Powell asked Boston Center, “Is this real-world or exercise?” Hardly the same room. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/335 "2012-07-20T04:19:22Z")
Have you ever seen a blacksmith work? They almost never deal with molten steel. Instead, they heat the steel in a hot fire. Then what do they do? They take the hot metal and pound it. What was the point of heating the steel? Heating the steel makes it malleable. That means it bends a lot more easily when hot than it does when cool. Take a steel bar and try to bend it with a hammer and anvil. Very difficult. Now heat the steel bar and try to bend it. Very easy. The steel bar never comes close to the melting point of steel, but it changes its physical properties. It isn’t rigid anymore, but plastic. Everyone in America has seen demonstrations of this physical property of steel. Cold steel is rigid. Hot steel bends. Take an iron bar and heat it, and it starts to droop. When the steel beams that hold up a skyscraper start to droop, the whole thing catastrophically collapses. It doesn’t slowly sag to the ground like a smaller structure might, because a skyscraper is much heavier. A steel beam that can support a ton would simply sag under its own weight if heated, because a steel beam that can support a ton weighs a lot less than a ton. A steel beam that can support a ton, that actually is supporting a ton of concrete, will collapse catastrophically when heated above a critical temperature, because it is right at the edge the strength of the material already. Change the phsical properties of the steel by heating, and the weakened material can’t stay up. And then the hundreds of tons of material overhead collapse onto the materials below. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/336 "2012-07-20T04:42:24Z")
[Photographic evidence of a sagging floor in one of the Towers.](http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f181/267570d1304007955-9-11-explained-roelly-sag.ht1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/337 "2012-07-20T05:36:03Z")
[QUOTE=split p&j] Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. [/QUOTE] I’m sure this has shifted to the ‘main topic of dispute’ because you figure it’s an easier target. Sadly, you are again wrong. It didn’t receive ‘minor damage’…it had a big ass building fall on it and do substantial structural damage. During which several very large fires were ignited. Said structural damage also rendered the fire suppression system inoperative. In addition (as if all this wasn’t enough), the fires burned out of control for many hours. Far from your ridiculous ‘minor damage from debris from the big towers’, the reality is to wonder how the fuck it stayed up as long as it did. Of course, you are relying on folks being as ignorant as you are of what really happened by even making so foolish a statement that is clearly contradicted by actual fact. And this is the theme with most 9/11 Truthers…their ridiculous claims fade away once the facts are shown. They rely on ignorance and distortion to get any traction at all. > [@](#): > > Video shows that the fires in this building were no where near as intense a the AON Center, which still stands to this day and burned more than twice as long. Horseshit. There are zero examples of buildings taking the types of systemic structural damage AND having fires rage completely out of control and without a working fire suppression system doing at least minimal mitigation. Zero. > [@](#): > > The steel truss explainaiton is just not good enough. I can pull just as many cites saying that there is no way the building could collaspe that way. Feel free. I should warn you though, that your cites will most likely be from clueless idiots who don’t know what they are talking about. I can predict what they will say…in a nut (heh) shell it will be something along the lines of ‘well, steel doesn’t melt until much higher temperatures, so it’s impossible for that to cause a collapse’. That, of course, is complete horeshit and relies on the folks listening to be completely ignorant of what happens to steel when it gets heated. The truth, of course, is that the steel doesn’t have to melt in order to lose structural integrity. It merely has to soften…once it loses structural integrity and even starts to deform you are going to have a collapse because of the amounts of mass involved (look up ‘potential energy’ sometime). > [@](#): > > In fact, most of your own experts say they have no clue why 7 collasped. Complete horseshit. Most REAL experts know exactly why it collapsed. Here, try [this](http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm) one. Or [this](http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/architecture/4278874) one. Or, hell, just do a quick Google search of ‘debunking 9/11 building 7’ and click on a few links…then you’ll see how silly it is to claim that experts don’t know why the freaking building collapsed. What you mean is 9/11 Truthers need to feel that experts don’t understand it, because then they can attempt to throw some doubt into the discussion. Otherwise they look like complete idiots when shown the facts, and what fun would that be for them? They don’t want to LOOK like crazy assholes after all…they want to look like rational people ‘just asking questions’. Hard to do, though, when all the evidence is against them… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/338 "2012-07-20T08:57:25Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. > > Video shows that the fires in this building were no where near as intense a the AON Center, which still stands to this day and burned more than twice as long. > The steel truss explainaiton is just not good enough. I can pull just as many cites saying that there is no way the building could collaspe that way. > > In fact, most of your own experts say they have no clue why 7 collasped. Every time a large building is brought down in a controlled demolition, there is auditory evidence immediately prior, in the form of a series of dozens of loud bangs indicative of demolition charges being ignited. Since this did not occur immediately preceding the collapse of WTC 7, we can confidently say that it was not brought down in a controlled demolition. Now, what do **you** think was the primary contributing factor in the collapse of WTC 7? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/339 "2012-07-20T12:09:20Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > You like photos? There are photos of the cores of both towers standing after the outer walls fell. What sort of deliberate demolition does that? Well, there was that one case at Shaka… > [@Lemur866](#): > > When tall buildings collapse, what makes them collapse is not explosives, or earthquakes, or impacts, or fires. What makes them collapse is gravity. Gravity is always trying to make things fall down. Tall buildings have to be carefully constructed in exactly the right way, or they won’t stay up. Weaken the steel, damage the concrete, do that enough and the structure is no longer able to support itself, and gravity takes over and the building crushes itself. I think [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0UZwgzH4Kw) may help explain your point in terms more understandable to the OP. > [@sparky\_1](#): > > If I say what I want to say right now, then I get banned. Not if you say it **in the Pit**. G’wan, shoo, get thee hence. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/340 "2012-07-20T13:48:58Z")
> [@XT](#): > > There are zero examples of buildings taking the types of systemic structural damage AND having fires rage completely out of control and without a working fire suppression system doing at least minimal mitigation. Zero. Not to mention that AON was burning for fewer hours and the fire was basically confined to five floors (one-fifth). Fires spread throughout nearly one-third of 7 and there was _no_ suppression being done because the sprinkler system in the building had been severed and outside water was being used to fight fires in 3, 4, 5, 6, and Deutche Bank. Fires that started when 2 and/or 1 ejected smoldering debris into them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099.md?page=18)