# 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099 "2012-07-13T12:46:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/341 "2012-07-20T13:51:13Z")
I notice that the OP hasn’t posted since Friday the 13th. I hope he didn’t fall into a gravity well. That would suck. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/342 "2012-07-20T15:27:16Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Ok, the main topic of dispute is WTC 7. No planes hit it, no kerosene fires burning across many floors. It recived minor damage from debris from the big towers. > > Video shows that the fires in this building were no where near as intense a the AON Center, which still stands to this day and burned more than twice as long. > The steel truss explainaiton is just not good enough. I can pull just as many cites saying that there is no way the building could collaspe that way. > > In fact, most of your own experts say they have no clue why 7 collasped. If the main topic of dispute is WTC7 have you bothered to read the report from NIST on why it collapsed? I linked to it in post 203 or so but for convenience, here’s my OP from that previous thread several years ago: [QUOTE=Valgard] After a three year study, here’s links to NIST’s report: [http://www.nist.gov/public\_affairs/r...wtc082108.html](http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/r...wtc082108.html) > **[World Trade Center Investigation](https://www.nist.gov/world-trade-center-investigation)** > > The collapse of the WTC buildings following the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, was one of the worst buildin Executive summary: Fires weakened structural members which collapsed, resulting in catastrophe. [/QUOTE] If you disagree with what is in that report, please tell us SPECIFICALLY what you disagree with and WHY; something factual, please. “Man, it’s just the government lying and covering it all up” is a random opinion, it’s not a reason backed up by any kind of evidence. And I’ll repeat my question regarding what kind of work or educational experience you have to back up your factual assertions. Anyone is free to voice their opinions, but if you’re going to argue about, say, how structural systems behave it would help to have some kind of specific knowledge about the topic. Your intuition and what you think looks right/wrong may in fact be completely out of whack with what actually happens. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/343 "2012-07-20T15:54:56Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I watched the video. > > I only have one question. Around 24 to 25 seconds into the video, you can see a bright orange glow in the corner of the building. It looks like it’s flowing. “Bright orange”? “Glow”? Do you have special filters on your monitor? Whatever was there certainly appeard to be liquid, but if you had ever seen molten iron being poured, you would recognize that whatever liquid was falling was not molten metal. (Frankly, to me it looked like water, particularly the way it spread and dissipated within a few dozen yards as it streamed out of the building, but I will not hazard a guess as to what it really was. I only note that it was not glowing like hot metal.) To see what actual molten iron looks like, watch the following video. I selected a video from a hand operated foundry to avoid claims that watching tons of metal in a Pittsburgh foundry would have a different appearance. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KtbWVp3xEqI/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AHeA4ACwAKKAgwIABABGH8gOygbMA8=&rs=AOn4CLBF9E8TikjCCg_vrxr-9TFIbfZlYA "Bangalore Iron Pour") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtbWVp3xEqI) Note that the metal is actually white hot and really glows. It also tends to spray “sparks,” (actually, glowing embers), whenever it touches anything. Whatever was coming off the tower in that video bore no resemblance to molten metal. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/344 "2012-07-20T16:48:25Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > Anyone is free to voice their opinions The key point on that, though, is something splt p&j continues to not grasp: an asinine and unfounded opinion is not free from being treated with the contempt it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/345 "2012-07-20T17:35:00Z")
Updated link to the NIST report since previous links don’t work: [http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub\_id=861610](http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=861610) (the download is a big PDF). I highly recommend reading section ES.3 “Principal Findings Of The Investigation”, pages xxxvi and xxvii. It’s not overly technical. Many of the common “just asking” questions are specifically addressed in this report. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/346 "2012-07-20T17:56:05Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > Updated link to the NIST report since previous links don’t work: > > [Final Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7, Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (NIST NCSTAR 1A) | NIST](http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=861610) (the download is a big PDF). > > I highly recommend reading section ES.3 “Principal Findings Of The Investigation”, pages xxxvi and xxvii. It’s not overly technical. > > Many of the common “just asking” questions are specifically addressed in this report. So,\*\* split p&j,\*\* are you now going to actually READ the explanations, or are you going to keep on insisting that “the experts cannot explain what happened to WT7” ?? There is no shame in looking at the factual data and then admitting you were wrong. There is shame in merely ignoring the facts and continuing to believe in a fantasy. There is greater shame in simply running away with fingers in ears, and then repeating the same false assertions again in a different place. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/347 "2012-07-20T18:27:07Z")
Sorry, one more thing, here’s a direct link to NIST’s FAQ on the WTC7 report. This gives a ready source of answers to all kinds of “just asking” questions. > **[FAQs - NIST WTC 7 Investigation](https://www.nist.gov/world-trade-center-investigation/study-faqs/wtc-7-investigation)** > > September 19, 2011 (updated 11/20/19) | Updated: September 10, 2021\* **split p&j** and anyone who wants to know what NIST had to say, check it out. Very good reading. As far as the “teams of experts”, the NIST report is prefaced with the enormous list of names of the folks who worked on it. I recognize some of the individuals and firms named, they are certainly qualified to participate. ---
**Author:** ![basefifty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cdc98d/32.png) [@basefifty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/basefifty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/348 "2012-07-20T18:32:52Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Good questions, and like I said I don’t really have an answer to all that. From what it looks like to me, part of the one tower was going to come down, but not a total collaspe. > > Of course I think explosives were palced in the bottoms of the buildings, I believe that the buildings were rigged top to floor,and I think the links I posted explain why. > > The point, as I see it, was not to have textbook contolled demolition, so it really did not matter where the planes hit, as long as they hit. If the planes don’t hit, thats when you have the problem.If the planes hit here, detonate the explosives from here down. If the plane hits there, same thing. All baseses are covered. > > As I stated before, if some expolsives went off when the planes hit, how does that hurt when you’ve got most all the structural supports rigged to blow. Large sections of the WTC buildings were off limits due to construction in the weeks leading up to 9/11. It wouldn’t have been as hard as you make it out to be. > > I really don’t find this any harder to believe than the offical story. Suppose WTC1 and WTC2 hadn’t damaged WTC7 during their collapses. Now WTC7 is standing there full of explosives. Do people go and covertly remove them all? Suppose the planes hadn’t even hit WTC1 and WTC2. Now the towers are standing there full of explosives. Do people go and covertly remove them all? Was the building that Flight 93 was supposed to hit also full of explosives? ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/349 "2012-07-20T21:27:23Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > Sorry, one more thing, here’s a direct link to NIST’s FAQ on t\*\*\*\*he WTC7 report. This gives a ready source of answers to all kinds of “just asking” questions. > > [FAQs - NIST WTC 7 Investigation | NIST](http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/faqs_wtc7.cfm) > > **split p&j** and anyone who wants to know what NIST had to say, check it out. Very good reading. > > As far as the “teams of experts”, the NIST report is prefaced with the enormous list of names of the folks who worked on it. I recognize some of the individuals and firms named, they are certainly qualified to participate. An excellent read and accessible to the non expert. The methodology is clear and makes so much more sense than explosives, too bad the Truthers will ignore it. To me the saddest thing about Truthers in their fixation on Conspiracy have somehow gotten the noise level so high, we no longer think about what caused 19 men to fly planes into buildings. Those guys had balls of steel and believed they were doing the right thing, how do we fix that? Is there anything we can do about that? I can only assume we will try to drown out the noise instead of looking the monster in the eye. **CAPT** ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/350 "2012-07-20T21:30:16Z")
The only ‘problem’ with using the NIST report is that Truthers automatically disregard it because it’s all part of the conspiracy. But then, they do that about everything so no harm in putting it in. It really is pretty easy to read and accessible to the non-technical, and most debunking websites use it heavily in any case. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/351 "2012-07-20T21:47:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The only ‘problem’ with using the NIST report is that Truthers automatically disregard it because it’s all part of the conspiracy. Except for the parts that appear to agree with them, in which case the NIST is A-OK. Mental gymnastics at its finest. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/352 "2012-07-20T21:52:47Z")
Nothing wrong with that in itself, anymore than making an argument that starts with “Alex Jones, by his own admission, states that…” Rob ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/353 "2012-07-20T21:56:22Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The only ‘problem’ with using the NIST report is that Truthers automatically disregard it because it’s all part of the conspiracy. But then, they do that about everything so no harm in putting it in. It really is pretty easy to read and accessible to the non-technical, and most debunking websites use it heavily in any case. > > -XT Not sure if it’s a good trait or not but I can be very stubborn about sticking to the facts. Someone wants to claim it’s all a conspiracy, fine. I’ll keep asking what actual facts they have questions about and why. I’ll show them the evidence and ask them what questions they have about that. I’ll ask them (as I always do) what their understanding of the underlying concepts is - honestly it’s not to say “Gotcha!” but more to try and educate people; I can talk about buckling of unsupported long columns or the P-delta effect with people who understand basic structural engineering, but for someone who hasn’t ever heard of that stuff it’s a lot easier to break out some simple examples and show them. As has come up many times in these threads before, people tend to extrapolate things they see in their regular environment (a tree falls over) up to things that happened in a very unusual environment (WTC1 and 2 falling down) and think that they should behave similarly, when in fact they are very very different situations. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/354 "2012-07-20T22:04:09Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > Nothing wrong with that in itself, anymore than making an argument that starts with “Alex Jones, by his own admission, states that…” I think you missed the point: saying the entire NIST can’t be trusted because they’re “in on it” then turning around and attempting to use the NIST to bolster one’s argument is a logical inconsistency. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/355 "2012-07-20T22:55:35Z")
> [@basefifty](#): > > Was the building that Flight 93 was supposed to hit also full of explosives? The real question is - _what was the government hiding in that field_ that they so desperately needed to make disappear? Aliens? Nazi gold? Alien Nazis? Alien Nazi gold? Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate? The lost Nixon tapes? Zombie Jimmy Hoffa? It’s OBVIOUS that everything else on 9/11 was a diversion to stop us from asking these questions. _We’re through the looking glass here, people._ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/356 "2012-07-21T02:21:27Z")
split p&j: I consider anyone who thinks the US government is going to commit mass murder of its own citizenry as someone with a less than tenuous grasp on reality. But, what they hey, let’s go ahead and pretend like your assertion has some bearing in facts. Let’s go ahead and say the president has ordered the murder of more than three thousand American citizens in one place. Okay, who’s going to carry out that order? Let me guess. You’re going to say that the President and Congress aren’t really the actual government of the United States. You’re going to posit some nefarious cabal. Before I laugh myself silly, perhaps you could cut to the chase and let us all know when you plan to “trump” all of the facts presented you by simply citing _The Protocols_. You know, so we can prepare ourselves for that unexpected turn of events. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/357 "2012-07-21T04:24:11Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I think you missed the point: saying the entire NIST can’t be trusted because they’re “in on it” then turning around and attempting to use the NIST to bolster one’s argument is a logical inconsistency. Indeed. Wheras pointing out that “Alex Jones admits ‘X’ is unlikely” is merely pointing out that a piece of meat is so rotten that even a starving dog won’t eat it. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/358 "2012-07-21T11:19:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > split p&j: I consider anyone who thinks the US government is going to commit mass murder of its own citizenry as someone with a less than tenuous grasp on reality. But, what they hey, let’s go ahead and pretend like your assertion has some bearing in facts. Let’s go ahead and say the president has ordered the murder of more than three thousand American citizens in one place. Okay, who’s going to carry out that order? Blanket denials that the U.S. government would do such a thing can fail to persuade, [**thanks to the reality of history**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States). Add such lies as the [**Gulf of Tonkin**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Of_Tonkin), for one, that led to the deaths of millions, and [**it’s not hard to understand**](https://www.google.co.uk/search?as_q=%22new+york%22+1950s+gas+government+subway+experiments&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=&gbv=1&sei=CY4KUPfxFMXbqgGGr_WeCg) why conspiracy theories abound. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/359 "2012-07-21T11:29:46Z")
And how many of those resulted in the immediate deaths of three thousand people? Unlike the WONJCTs, I am not unaware of the facts of history. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099/360 "2012-07-21T11:48:03Z")
Who knows? That’s the essence of secrecy. Anyway, I’m not a 9/11 conspiracy advocate. I merely pointed out why such theories gain credence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-11/628099.md?page=19)