# 9 year old girl accidentally kills gun range instructor with Uzi. (RO) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660 "2014-08-27T18:12:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/81 "2014-08-29T09:14:23Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Aaaand here we go. I know. Don’t you hate it when there’s this big circle jerk where everyone is propping each other up and making even more outlandish statements and throwing bombs at even more ridiculous straw men, when someone actually shows up and points that out? How ridiculous. I should leave you guys to your ignorant mocking in peace. I might even deprived someone of that delicious cracker. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/82 "2014-08-29T09:30:11Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I honestly don’t even understand the point you’re trying to make. You seemed to bring the subject of tek-9s out of nowhere in that thread, and listed them as if they were a category of firearm. > > When you say “I don’t know if they allow tek-9s and handguns”, it sounds like you’re saying "I don’t know if they allow guns of type A or type B. It sounds like you don’t know what a tek-9 is, and maybe you’re thinking is a general term for a category like submachine guns. Or something. > > So two posters asked you what it was you were trying to say, because, quite frankly, it was indeed an odd thing to say. It doesn’t help on top of that that during the 80s and 90s the tek-9 in particular was the target of a lot of scaremongering in the media, so it really does sound like you don’t know what you’re talking about. > > But even if I’ve somehow misread that situation, it’s hardly a good example of the sort of point you’re trying to make. They said nothing like that. It wasn’t a polite inquiry. The Tec-9 was famous for being easily convertible into a fully automatic pistol. I didn’t know whether that sort of circumvention of the law was permitted in Finland. I also didn’t know whether easily concealable weapons like handguns were permitted. And note that neither poster was interested in my cross-country comparison, which was the point of my post. They just glommed on to a tangent. > [@Malacandra](#): > > Haftasay, I was expecting the customary shitstorm about people who call firearms by the wrong names, and thank you and good night the entire thread… It was basically that. Don’t you knew how to spel Teck-9 har har? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/83 "2014-08-29T09:48:57Z")
It wasn’t like that at all. As far as I can tell from a quick search of that thread, tek-9s were not involved in that discussion. And suddenly you pop in with “I don’t know if Tek 9s and handguns are legal in Finland” - it’s a bizarre non-sequitor. It’d be like “I don’t know if Honda Civics or cars are available in Finland” - Honda Civics are a specific type of car. Such a phrasing would make anyone wonder if you understand what a Civic was, or why you brought into the discussion. Except that’s not quite right either - because the tek-9 was the target of media hysteria and gun bans a few decades ago, lots of people attempted to use tek-9s are some sort of example of scary guns that demonstrate flaws in our gun laws. So in general, a focus on tek-9s generally comes with a higher than average level of hysteria and ignorance. Maybe if I read that whole thread, there’d be more context that I’m not getting here, but you seem to be the one who randomly introduced the idea of the tek-9, and in a way that makes you sound like you don’t know what it is you’re talking about. From there it seems perfectly reasonable for others in the thread to ask if you know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/84 "2014-08-29T10:13:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I know. Don’t you hate it when there’s this big circle jerk where everyone is propping each other up and making even more outlandish statements and throwing bombs at even more ridiculous straw men, when someone actually shows up and points that out? > > How ridiculous. I should leave you guys to your ignorant mocking in peace. I might even deprived someone of that delicious cracker. Yes, indeed. People who can’t tell handguns from shotguns from assault rifles from SMGs from machineguns have no business sitting around saying what a fucking stupid idea it is to let a 9-year-old play with an automatic weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/85 "2014-08-29T10:54:57Z")
Well, at least nobody’s quibbling over what “dead” means. Yet. > [@scudsucker](#): > > The weirdest thing in this, to me, is that the parents were the ones who took the video footage. Which _they_ must have released… WTF? A fucking tragedy\* occurs where your daughter manages to kill someone, while you are filming, and your first move is to make the footage public? > > - for certain version of tragedy. My view is that the instructor deserves his Darwin award Maybe the parents didn’t release it. The police would have demanded such footage for their investigation and once they had it, the number of sources increases dramatically. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/86 "2014-08-29T11:12:15Z")
All the reports I’ve read say the video comers from the police. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/87 "2014-08-29T11:18:31Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yes, indeed. People who can’t tell handguns from shotguns from assault rifles from SMGs from machineguns have no business sitting around saying what a fucking stupid idea it is to let a 9-year-old play with an automatic weapon. I never said anything of the sort. This is pretty clearly a darwin award. I have no comment on the original incident. I was only commenting on the HERP DERP IN BEFORE GUN NUTS TELL US WE CAN’T SAY THIS WAS BAD BECAUSE WE USED THE WRONG NOMENCLATURE straw idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/88 "2014-08-29T12:17:52Z")
Last year over a hundred people were killed and nearly 3,000 seriously injured in bicycling accidents. We choose our entertainment and we decide which risks are worth it. Guns are dangerous. I don’t think gun ranges are, are they? I do not think the “let’s ban dangerous pursuits” crowd will ever be able to be internally consistent. Motorcycles. Base jumping. Bicycling. Parachuting. Marijuana. Alcohol. Cigarettes. Knives. Boating. Swimming pools. But I guess if you are afraid of guns, you are afraid of guns, and they have a special terror for you all their own. ( I certainly don’t keep any around.) In the end 😃 the capacity of the witless to find ways to exit is nearly limitless. There may be good arguments against firearm ownership by the masses, but surely this type of accident at a gun range is not one of them. I don’t think many people die accidentally at a gun range. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/89 "2014-08-29T12:20:41Z")
Gun strokers \* never \* herp derp over nomenclature. And four simple rules mean these incidents never happen. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/90 "2014-08-29T12:21:39Z")
I bet the amount of straw in this thread will kill more people by suffocation than any of my guns ever will. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/91 "2014-08-29T12:22:21Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Last year over a hundred people were killed and nearly 3,000 seriously injured in bicycling accidents. > > We choose our entertainment and we decide which risks are worth it. > > Guns are dangerous. I don’t think gun ranges are, are they? > > I do not think the “let’s ban dangerous pursuits” crowd will ever be able to be internally consistent. Motorcycles. Base jumping. Bicycling. Parachuting. Marijuana. Alcohol. Cigarettes. Knives. Boating. Swimming pools. > > But I guess if you are afraid of guns, you are afraid of guns, and they have a special terror for you all their own. ( I certainly don’t keep any around.) > > In the end 😃 the capacity of the witless to find ways to exit is nearly limitless. > > There may be good arguments against firearm ownership by the masses, but surely this type of accident at a gun range is not one of them. I don’t think many people die at a gun range. God, I admire you, you who is master of the scary death machine! ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/92 "2014-08-29T12:37:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I dunno, maybe being able to say “I killed a man when I was nine because he was stupid,” might prove useful. > > But, uh, probably not. True, but when she starts dating, it would certainly keep the boyfriends in line. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/93 "2014-08-29T12:42:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Maybe the parents didn’t release it. The police would have demanded such footage for their investigation and once they had it, the number of sources increases dramatically. I’d like to think that a young girl firing an Uzi would be a rare enough sight that other spectators nearby would be inclined to film it, just for the novelty. Or maybe someone affiliated with the range was recording it for publicity use. Testing the limits of the “no publicity is bad publicity” maxim, if so… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/94 "2014-08-29T12:49:27Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > There may be good arguments against firearm ownership by the masses, but surely this type of accident at a gun range is not one of them. I don’t think many people die accidentally at a gun range. Are stats like that available? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/95 "2014-08-29T13:30:44Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > [Two Denver deaths tied to recreational marijuana use - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-denver-deaths-tied-to-recreational-marijuana-use/) > > [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/body/mortality.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/body/mortality.html) Do you even READ these links — or do you think people are just going to see the blue-highlighted links and assume you posted something that makes an actual point?? The first link contains a couple of accounts of people doing crazy fucked up stuff while high – stuff that isn’t among the behaviors normally associated with pot-smoking ( it typically makes people less violent and murderous, not more so ). No reason to think they wouldn’t have done the same fucked up stuff if they hadn’t been stoned. The second link is even funnier – the only points I can pull out of the pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo are: 1. People that smoke dope often drink as well, and drinking can be really dangerous. 2. Smoking pot can make you really horny, and if you have AIDS this might not be a good thing. but the conclusion of the article is clear _ **“In summary, this study showed little, if any effect of marijuana use on non-AIDS mortality in men and on total mortality in women. The increased risk of AIDS mortality in male marijuana users probably did not reflect a causal relationship, but most likely represented uncontrolled confounding by male homosexual behavior. The risk of mortality associated with marijuana use was lower than that associated with tobacco cigarette smoking.”** _ And contradicts the point you thought you were making. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/96 "2014-08-29T14:04:21Z")
I still want to know under what interpretation of the NFA you can hand off an NFA weapon to someone who is NOT a licensee and have it be legal. I’m quite certain if I loaned someone who was a convicted felon my handgun to use at the range and it was discovered, the police would be taking me downtown to have a long and unpleasant talk with me and my attorney. I believe “possession” has been defined as using a loaned gun, and that’s just what happened in this case. I think this practice of loaning NFA weapons to unlicensed people to shoot is irresponsible and under our current laws I’m baffled as to why it’s legal. I have no problem with the NFA licensing scheme (other then the 1986 ban on new weapons) but there is no way I can justify someone who is not licensed using these weapons. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/97 "2014-08-29T14:37:36Z")
I let folks use my NFA items if I’m standing right next to them. I don’t think there have been any court rulings saying that they have possession in those cases. There are lots of places that rent NFA items for use on their range. ATF doesn’t seem to be bothered by it, though this incident may change that. Ever been to Knob Creek? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/98 "2014-08-29T15:24:50Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > I let folks use my NFA items if I’m standing right next to them. Just don’t stand LEFT next to them. Kapwing! ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/99 "2014-08-29T20:13:16Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Wait, this place was actually called _Bullets and Burgers_? Sounds like a place where you go out a shoot your own cow and they butcher it and cook it for you. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660/100 "2014-08-29T20:16:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just don’t stand LEFT next to them. Kapwing! How about behind them then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-kills-gun-range-instructor-with-uzi-ro/696660.md?page=6)