.999 = 1?

Reading (OK skimming) through this post and its sister post has been fun like binge-watching 2 or 3 seasons of a TV show. My remark is to the long gone (probably years ago) OP.

When I first discuss fraction=decimal equivalents with young kids they find the various patterns of the repeaters cool. Means they don’t have to divide every time, and, heck,who doesn’t enjoy finding patterns anyway?

So I then I start them on 1/9 = 0.111…, 2/9=0.222…, etc. and leave them alone. One by one on their own they get to: “But wait! That means 9/9 is 0.999… but 9/9 is 1, and 0.999… can’t be 1, can it?”

“Oh, yes, it can, and it truly is.” They make the ‘mind blown’ sign and love it. “When you’ve learned more math you’ll know why.” Then we start learning more math.

Hey, I know this is way elementary for this thread but they are 10 years old, you know. I just like to slip that fact in early and get them used to it. :smiley:

MsKaren, I looked at your join date and cringed. “No sooner than we get rid of one math crank than we get another.” I was wrong, and you are raising a group of intuitive mathematicians who, unlike some people, can get over having their minds blown and move on, looking for more mind-blowers. They figure that out on their own? Congratulations, and welcome to the SDMB.

The math might be elementary but the pedagogy sounds pretty advanced to me. Well done.

Hey, thanks. That was really friendly.

And it was worth keeping the thread open if only for just that.
Thanks Samclem
Awesome stuff, MsKaren!

Even this thread is older than your students. Stuff that you’re doing is what gives people life long loves of math and science. Well done and lucky you get to spend all day with children.

0.(9) = 1 is based on infinite sum theory, which Euler flawed. He thought he was using perfect mathematics, but he was not, which let do a contradictory conclusion which was “amazing!” and minds were blown, that 2 different decimal numbers, which should all be unique for the “amount” or “value” they represent, had the same “value”. This is contradictory of course, as much as 1 = 2 is.

The infinite series formula was based on finite terms.
Then with a leap of faith, the finite equation was used with infinity.
However, limit concept prevents this equality in the first place (as a sum).
The leap of faith is the same one that mathematicians try and use to prevent the induction technique which disproves 1 = 0.(9):
0.9 < 1
0.99 < 1
0.9(n times) < 0.9(n+1 times) < 1

Here is a summary of Euler’s proof for infinite sums:

S = a + ar + ar² + … + arⁿ + …
rS = ar + ar² + … + arⁿ + …

Now what usually happens here is the magical INCORRECT subtracting of infinite series terms. You see, here is the correct way of subtracting infinite converging series:
Σ { a_i - b_i } = Σ a_i - Σ b_i
But you see in the proof, they subtract like this: a_i+1 - b_i:
S - rS = (a - 0) + (ar - ar) + (ar² - ar²) + …
This forces the results to be what is desired along with things such as 2 different decimal numbers being the same decimal number, ie, 0.(9) = 1
However, when done correctly, you get consistent results:
S = Σ a_i
rS = Σ r x a_i
S - rS = Σ {a_i - ra_i}

Apply to 9.(9) where a = 9, r = 1/10:
S = 9 + 9/10 + 9/100 + …
rS = (1/10) x S = 9/10 + 9/100 + …
S - rS = (9 - 9/10) + (9/10 - 9/100) + … = 8.1 + 0.81 + 0.081 + … = Σ 81/10ⁿ
(then we have coercions that there is no ‘1’ as the decimal form of the above sum, and that is is equal to 8.999… to which I reject and say then, that there is no decimal number to accurately represent this series, since there is a ‘81’ in every iteration added to the end)

You are led to believe that S - rS = a, but **clearly ** above:
S - rS = (a - ar) + (ar - ar²) + …

If a = 9, and r = 1/10, then S - rS = 9
But if we do it correctly, S - rS = Σ 81/10ⁿ

As we can see, the proof is flawed using incorrect infinite series subtractions to achieve the results that were desired. The proof was not a proof at all since it is invalid… unless you *assume *Σ 81/10ⁿ = 8.999… and also 9 = 8.999… which is completely circular, that is, assuming S - rS = a which is the basis of the entire “proof” of 0.(9) = 1.

Secondly, you can show using induction that 0.(9) - 0.(9) is never equal to 0, just as induction can be used to show that 1 = 0.(9) is never zero:
1 - 0.9 > 0
1 - 0.99 > 0
1 - 0.9(n times) > 1 - 0.9(n+1 times) > 0

Now I am sure the “density” theory has been discussed, which is also circular since it assumes 0.(9) is finite.
Rules exist for operations with finite numbers.
Rules exist for operations with infinite series.

I ask, where are the rules for subtracting infinite series and a finite number ??
Unless you assume the limit, none exist, and then of course your argument is circular since you already used the limit instead of the actual series.

Construction of a “Real Number”
Same argument here. Restrictions on the definition force it to only use finite “n” and “epsilon” which only prove that any finite number is less than infinity.

The “made up” rules are such that infinity automatically invokes a limit on itself.
This is strictly made up in order for them to get their own way.

In no way does 0.9(infinite times) automatically invoke any limit. Write a computer program to create endless 9’s. Unless you specifically put code in there to identify an endless loop (infinity) and break the loop, it will go on creating 9’s for infinity. If you wrote code to break the loop and use the limit, then you DECIDED to do this. It is a clear DECISION and it must be accepted by students and professors.
It is no different than saying 1/10^∞ = lim (n→∞) (1/10^∞)

So back to the density theory; the question is:
What is the number between 1 and 0.(9) ? This question makes no sense since you are comparing a finite number and an infinite series. You are, however, pointing out that infinity is flawed and is exploitable in the number system.
I say again, infinity is exploitable, and exploitation has no place in mathematics.
Question: What is the average of 1 and 0.(9) ?
Answer:
(1 + 0.(9) ) / 2 = (1 + Σ 9/10ⁿ ) / 2 = 1/2 + 1/2 x Σ 9/10ⁿ = 1/2 + Σ (1/2 x 9/10ⁿ)
= 1/2 + Σ 4.5/10ⁿ

So what is Σ 4.5/10ⁿ ?
s1 = 0.45
s2 = 0.495
s3 = 0.4995
Again, what is the decimal number that represents this series? Unless you make some assumptions or circular reasoning, you have no argument.
Σ (n=1 to N) 4.5/10ⁿ = 0.49(N-1 times)5
Now, if you set N = infinity (which is usually a NO-NO to set any variable equal to infinity), you end up with 0.49(∞-1 times)5
and ∞-1 is an illegal math statement.

These are just some of the flaws with these concepts and are usually just glossed over, or some hand-waving and authority is used to coerce you into “believing”.

It was bound to happen eventually, I just didn’t think it would be so soon.

Too bad I can’t show long division here. I can however, show it in-line:

You are taught in elementary school, long division with remainders.
I would like to know what “rule” says that we *must *do long division *to infinity *??
Here is the long division written in a format due to inability to show it properly: The last term of the addends is the *remainder *:

dividend/divisor = quotient + remainder

1/3 = 10/30
= 9/30 + 1/30

Now we can further divide things up:
1/3 = 9/30 + 1/30
= 9/30 + 10/300
= 9/30 + 9/300 + 1/300

There is no infinity involved here.
We can also use summation to represent the same thing:

1/3 = Σ(n=1 to N) 3/10ⁿ + 1/ (3 x 10^N)

For any “N”, 1/3 = 1/3 which in line with the laws of mathematics.
If you choose to take the limit, according to algebra rules, you do so on *both *sides of the equation, let N→∞ and you *still *get 1/3 = 1/3.

0.333… is a completely different math object, which is an infinite series defined (poorly) to infinity:

0.333… = 3/10 + 3/100 + … = Σ(n=1 to ∞) 3/10ⁿ

1/3 = Σ(n=1 to N) 3/10ⁿ + 1/ (3 x 10^N)

**Σ(n=1 to N) 3/10ⁿ + 1/ (3 x 10^N) ≠ 3/10 + 3/100 + … **

There is always a remainder on the left hand side of the equation.

Important Note: We can’t just take the limit of one side of the equation and leave functions and variables on the other.

I’m going to ask you some questions which are just an attempt to help me understand the nuances of the framework in which you are working, schooner26. It’s important that you understand my goal is not to trip you up and shout “gotcha”.

Is your position that 0.999… is a well-defined value, or that it is incoherent to treat it as a well-defined value because it invokes the specter of infinity? [I *think* your position is the former, but I’m not sure]
Would you say that 0.999… > 0.9999? [Insofar as this is true once we expand out enough 9s, but not until then]

I will also, separately, ask you a question which has slightly more of a “gotcha” flavor. This is completely unrelated to my goals in asking you the previous questions, but I am curious how you would respond to it:

Would you say that 0.999… = 0.9 + 0.99 + 0.999 + … or that 0.999… = 0 + 0.9 + 0.99 + … or that 0.999… = 0.99 + 0.0099 + 0.000099 + … or some other thing? (I presume you would not want to consider these series equal, since they are different at each term)

Le sigh.

The limit of this sequence of partial sums is 1/2. Note this is a geometric sequence with common ratio 1/10. If we recall our geometric series, the limit of the series consisting of partial sums of the sequence, a, ar, ar^2, ar^3, … for r< 1 is a/(1-r).

In this case, a = 0.45 = 9/20 and r = 1/10, so the limit of the sequence of partial sums is 9/20 / (1 - 1/10) = 10/20 = 1/2.

The partial sums get arbitrarily close to 1/2.

As N becomes unbounded (if the word “infinity” bothers you, we can avoid it entirely), the difference between S_N and 1/2 becomes arbitrarily small.

In other words (using one version of the definition of a limit), for any epsilon > 0, we can always find an integer N > 0 such that | S_N - 1/2 | < epsilon.

See? No infinity. :slight_smile:

You can’t set a variable to infinity.

So, it’s a good thing nobody does that (see above).

Please review the concept of a limit. There is nowhere in a limit where any particular value has to be “set” to infinity. That’s rather the point of a limit.

Accusing people of something they don’t do is … incongruous and a bit of strawmanning.

Well, no. There’s a considerable amount of people stretching analogies (rather than the actual math) too far. Go back to the actual definitions and usage in mathematics, and those “flaws” turn out to be people trying to use analogies and “common sense” rather than the actual definitions.

It is true we use those same analogies as a pedagogical tool. It’s usually a mistake to dump kids into full blown analysis. Unfortunately, this also means people can learn things that aren’t strictly true but still “true enough” to help in understanding.

schooner26 writes:

> . . . exploitation has no place in mathematics . . .

Oh, yeah? Why then do I sleep in a rat-infested basement with several dozen other mathematicians? Why do we have nothing to wear except filthy rags? Why do we have nothing to eat except the cockroaches that invest our workplace? Why do we get beaten at the end of the day if we don’t prove enough theorems? Why is it that the physicists who live in the basement next door in equal squalor at least get to take a bath once a year (although, admittedly, in a polluted river)?

Yes of course. But 1 > 0.(9) by an indistinguishable amount since we can never pinpoint how many 9s actually exist, since they never end, therefore the difference between them can never be pinpointed, since the operation never ceases either. There is always “another iteration”.
1 - 1/10ⁿ = 0.9(n-times)
1 - 0.9(n-times) = 1/10ⁿ

I ask, what must (n) be equal to in order for the above statement to contain 0.9(∞ times) ?

There is no ‘0’.

For what (n) does Σ(n=1 to N) 9/10ⁿ = 0 ?

If you want to go adding 0’s to the beginning pf the series, then I shall add INFINITE 0’s before the second one:

(9 + 9/10 + 9/100 + …) - (0 + 0 + 0 + … 9/10 + 9/100 + …)

Of course you can attempt to reject this, but there is nothing different here than what you are doing.

If you want to do this RIGOROUSLY, then you must follow the rules of algebra where “what is done to one side is done to the other side” in order to maintain equality:

9.(9) = 9 + 9/10 + 9/100 + …
09.(9) = 0 + 9 + 9/10 + 9/100 + …

.(9) = 9/10 + 9/100 + …
0.(9) = 0 + 9/10 + 9/100 + …

Your leading zeros are insignificant with terminating decimals because they all look like, for example: …0001.000… anyway. ‘1’ is just a shorthand.

But infinite series is a different kettle of fish in which each digit is strictly defined

The physicists got Neil deGrasse Tyson. You guys ain’t got squat.

It’s all about the rock stars.

Why is this a problem?

It’s pretty simple to show that the difference between 1 and 0.999… gets arbitrarily small.

That’s a good working model of “equality”, i.e. things that are arbitrarily close together.

We don’t absolutely have to use that working model of equality (see hyperreals and nonstandard analysis) but it is what we use for the version of the real numbers we typically use.

Yes, but “arbitrary” is not a number, thus this amount is unidentifiable since the subtractions never end (infinite). It is *voluntary *to use a limit; and a leap of faith to claim equality

I claim quite the opposite.
If you needed an exact amount of an antidote, or you would die, would you accept arbitrarily close?
Arbitrary is not a number, nor is it any finite amount.

I find this unacceptable in this day and age, that we still use this “version”

There’s nothing inherently wrong with that, but that doesn’t really say anything about the equality 1 = 0.999…

That statement is inherently true because the way the real numbers are set up.

The equality stands because things were set up in such a way that the equality must be true. It’s a rigged game, in some sense. You disagree with how they’re set up (the rules and such). That’s ok. But mere preference doesn’t change the equality. It’s a subjective objection, not one based on an error or false claim.

You are, of course, welcome to set up your own rules (including those on equality). But that would produce a different system of numbers with different properties. Some of those are actually pretty interesting (see several examples in this thread alone), but none of them are the system of real numbers with exactly the same properties we teach in grade school. Nonintuitive, but that’s the way it works sometimes.

So, my point is the Euler assumed the difference in the series would be equal before concluding that the difference was the same, whether shifted or not, therefore, it was circular. If shifting wasn’t used, and infinite series operations were used correctly to align the proper indices, his result would have shown that an infinite series was the original infinite series.

Again, Euler was circular in assuming equality instead of concluding it by applying concepts of finite numbers rather than infinite series.

My idea would be to not have an infinite series attempted to be represented as a decimal number.

For instance, the number 1 is construction by using an infinite series (or sequence of partial sums).
However, 1 is the number that is output as the constructed number; not the originating series. There may be dozens or infinite sequences which converge on the number 1, but we don’t attempt to write these series/sequences as numbers themselves.

0.999… is a decimal representation of an infinite series which is used to construct number 1. I reject 0.999… as any “number” since it cannot represent any value as there is always another 9 being added to the end. Giving a finite value is contradictory to its own definition as infinite (endless, not infinitely large)

I think you’re still missing my point - whatever your idea is (and you’re welcome to them), whatever results is NOT the real numbers we teach in school. They won’t have the same properties. They may share some properties and may have a superficial similarity, but they won’t be the same.

What you would prefer is that we somehow have our current system of numbers with a few tweaks. Well, sorry, but that just doesn’t work. It’s not really possible because of the way that system is set up. It’s in the genetics of the system.

The equality 1=0.999… would still hold under the system of numbers we currently use, regardless of whatever system you set up where it doesn’t (and under which other properties we like in real numbers also wouldn’t hold).

I don’t really know why you are focusing on Euler. It’s kind of irrelevant.

Not that he was wrong, but you don’t really need his say on the matter to build up the system of real numbers independently and in several other ways.