# \_The Fionavar Tapestry\_ **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012 "2006-08-31T23:46:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/1 "2006-08-31T23:46:29Z")
The only reason, **the only reason** , I’m finishing The Summer Tree is because _Guy Gavriel Kay_ correctly quoted _Cool Hand Luke_. I thought only _Neil Armstrong_ could do that. Transit TV couldn’t. **Even _Terri Prachett_ couldn’t.** Misquoting _Luke_ is like misquoting Jesus. You’ld know that if you’d actually seen the movie. Well, okay that and that fact that Guy, at times, borders on poetry. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/2 "2006-09-01T01:23:32Z")
One of the best series I have ever read, from my favorite author. When you’ve finished, pick up _Tigana_. Then work your way through the rest… ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/3 "2006-09-01T01:32:22Z")
Teenage angst that drove me nuts. I couldn’t even complete the first book without getting supremely irritated at how whiny everyone was. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/4 "2006-09-01T01:39:06Z")
Terri Prachett? Who’s she? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/5 "2006-09-01T02:22:33Z")
[QUOTE=Will Repair] Guy, at times, borders on poetry. [/QUOTE] Guy, in Fionavar, bordered on plagiarism, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/6 "2006-09-01T02:35:29Z")
Who? Seriously, I never heard that. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/7 "2006-09-01T02:52:33Z")
[QUOTE=EJsGirl] Who? Seriously, I never heard that. [/QUOTE] Tolkien. Guy helped Christopher Tolkien edit JRRT’s **The Silmarillion** manuscripts. The entire Fionavar tapestry reads like Middle-Earth 2. It’s not as bad a ripoff as Brooks’ **Sword of Shannara** by any stretch of the imagination, but to me (and thousands of others) the influence was obvious enough to be off-putting. > [@](#): > > The map of Fionavar shows the northwestern part of the continent and its western coasts, bordered by an ocean, like most of the Middle-earth maps drawn by Tolkien, especially of Beleriand. Beyond the western sea lies a place where the Lios Alfar (Elves) go when they want to abandon the world, similar to Tolkien’s Valinor. > > The east of the map is bordered by great mountain masses, where the dwarves live around and under the twin peaks of Banir Tal and Banir Lök, similar to the eastern Beleriand with the Ered Luin and the two dwarf mansions built on them. > > To the north is the mountain mass of Starkadh, dominated by Rangat mountain where Raukoth Maugrim is trapped, reminiscent of Ered Engrin and the Thangorodrim. > > The order of mages in Brennin has five members, like Tolkien’s Heren Istarion of the five Wizards. > > Dalrei have some similarities to the Rohirrim, though they are less warlike. Pendaran, a wood of the Lios Alfar that has now become perilous, echoes Mirkwood which with the return of the Necromancer becomes dark and sinister. > **[The Fionavar Tapestry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fionavar_Tapestry)** > > The Fionavar Tapestry is a book series of fantasy novels by Canadian author Guy Gavriel Kay, published between 1984 and 1986. The novels are set in both contemporary Toronto and the secondary world of Fionavar. Five University of Toronto senior law and medical students who are drawn into the 'first world of the Tapestry' by the mage Loren Silvercloak. Once there, each character discovers their own role and destiny in the framework of an ancient conflict. Ysabel, while not part of The Fionavar Ta... That names only a few borrowings. I finished the series, but stopped in annoyance literally every 2nd or 3rd page as I recognized something plucked out of JRRT’s mythos. I’ve never been able to read it again as a result. ---
**Author:** ![manx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@manx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manx)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/8 "2006-09-01T03:06:20Z")
I bought the first one off a number of doper reccomendations, and was pretty disappointed. I’m not a big fan of real world/fantasy land crossovers, and although there were bits I liked, I on’t be picking up the next two. Is his other stuff any better? ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/9 "2006-09-01T05:28:37Z")
It does have its admittedly gorgeous moments, but even if it’s a highest quality Tolkien ripoff, it’s still a Tolkien ripoff. Which is a shame, because he _can_ write; _Tigana_, _A Song for Arbonne_, and _The Lions of Al-Rassan_ are all superb fantasy. I seriously recommend them. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/10 "2006-09-01T06:04:15Z")
I LOVE everything else of his I’ve read, but book one of this trilogy is one of only, I think, three books I’ve ever failed to finish, and it was entirely due to this exact reaction: [QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] I finished the series, but stopped in annoyance literally every 2nd or 3rd page as I recognized something plucked out of JRRT’s mythos. I’ve never been able to read it again as a result. [/QUOTE] Go read his Sarantine (sp?) Mosaic instead - the pair of books based on the Byzantine Empire. Those are probably my favorite of his. Hmm…come to think of it, I haven’t heard any Kay news in a while. Has he written anything since, um, that one based on medieval England that I can’t remember the name of? ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/11 "2006-09-01T07:28:47Z")
The Fionavar Tapestry has a special place in my heart, mostly because I was sitting on a bench on Philosopher’s Walk (University of Toronto campus) reading the book, in which the characters go up Philosopher’s Walk after a lecture at Hart House. I’d argue that much of the similarity between Tolkein’s work and the Tapestry series is superficial, and given that both were heavily influenced by Celtic and Germanic mythology (with a slightly heavier dose of Norse folklore in Kay’s stories, Rohan notwithstanding), those are not surprising. On the other hand, I’d say it’s naive to suggest that some details weren’t inspired by his work with Christopher Tolkein on JRRT’s accumulated notes. I’ll also add my voice to the chorus in support of Kay’s later works as being much better than the Fionavar Tapestry. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/12 "2006-09-01T11:18:53Z")
I quite enjoyed the trilogy and Tiganna. His other stuff worked less well for me. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/13 "2006-09-01T14:09:44Z")
I was underwhelmed by _Tigana_ (patriotism, Yay!), and after hearing about the LOTR similarities Qadgop posted above, I’m beginning to wonder where the Emporer’s clothes are. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/14 "2006-09-01T14:13:08Z")
[QUOTE=manx] Is his other stuff any better? [/QUOTE] Good God, yes. _Tigana_ is wonderful. I also recommend _The Lions of Al-Rassan_, _A Song for Arbonne_ & _Sailing to Sarantium_. I haven’t gotten to _Lord of Emperors_ yet, because I have been stuck (in a good way) in the middle of the Aubrey/Maturin series! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Arien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arien)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/15 "2006-09-01T15:00:23Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Tolkien. Guy helped Christopher Tolkien edit JRRT’s **The Silmarillion** manuscripts. The entire Fionavar tapestry reads like Middle-Earth 2. It’s not as bad a ripoff as Brooks’ **Sword of Shannara** by any stretch of the imagination, but to me (and thousands of others) the influence was obvious enough to be off-putting. > **[The Fionavar Tapestry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fionavar_Tapestry)** > > The Fionavar Tapestry is a book series of fantasy novels by Canadian author Guy Gavriel Kay, published between 1984 and 1986. The novels are set in both contemporary Toronto and the secondary world of Fionavar. Five University of Toronto senior law and medical students who are drawn into the 'first world of the Tapestry' by the mage Loren Silvercloak. Once there, each character discovers their own role and destiny in the framework of an ancient conflict. Ysabel, while not part of The Fionavar Ta... That names only a few borrowings. I finished the series, but stopped in annoyance literally every 2nd or 3rd page as I recognized something plucked out of JRRT’s mythos. I’ve never been able to read it again as a result. [/QUOTE] I think I read the Fionavar Tapestry soon after I finished the Silmarillion and the similarities really stood out. There’s also a Kay version of Gandalf and Beren and Luthien, as well as a country that’s famous for their horses. I realize that Tolkien also drew from myth, but he did a much, much better job at making them his own, instead of just cut and pasting what he liked about each myth into his world, which is what the Fionavar Tapestry seemed like to me. He even squeezed in some Camelot mythology in there by having one of the main characters be the reincarnation of Guinevere. Arthur and Lancelot also show up rather abruptly. He tries to explain the similarities by having the world of Fionavar be the original world and all the others are spin-offs, but that doesn’t work because Fionavar is the world that feels like a cheap spin-off of a real one. What also bothered me is that all the characters acted the way they did because that’s what the plot (or “destiny”) required of them. I also read Tigana and it was much more original than Fionavar, but it was very angsty, sometimes hilariously so. There was this one scene where the main character has rough sex with some woman, and there was this sentence about how that’s the only way it could be because of all the wars and stuff going on. Or something like that anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/16 "2006-09-01T17:47:45Z")
I gotta say, the first book is fantastic. The second book is pretty good. I can’t remember what happens in the third book, even though I think I’ve read it three times. I really enjoy this series until it gets all Arthurian. Did he just give up on all his ideas or what? What a cop-out! ---
**Author:** ![Procyon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@Procyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procyon)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/_the-fionavar-tapestry_/371012/17 "2006-09-02T02:19:57Z")
I think I’ve commented on this topic before here, but I’ll do so again. My problem with _The Fionavar Tapestry_ series is that each chapter contains at least one segment that reads like it’s supposed to be the emotional climax of the entire book. Here’s a helpful comparison in case you haven’t read the novels. Normal author: “Dave looked at the reflection of the stars on the sea and was overwhelmed by the beauty.” Guy Gavriel Kay: "Dave looked at the reflection of the stars on the sea and beheld something that was like beauty in its natural state, unsullied by the minds and words of mortals. Here, at the cold and churning heart of the sea and beneath the celestial axis to which the infinity of stars are chained, during the height of the conjunction between all Universes past and future, a beauty was made visible, if only for the briefest of moments, a beauty that shamed even that of the Goddess herself and burned its immutable image, eternally and irrevocably, into the soul of David Alexander Martinyuik. Normal author: “While the pair walked through the woods, Kevin turned to Beth and said ‘I love you.’” Guy Gavriel Kay: "While the pair walked through the woods, Beth’s silence caused Kevin to feel that his footfalls were louder than the thunderbolts of Mörnir. The air around them was charged with sunlight and shadow and a force stronger still. They both could feel the surge of an invisible tide around them as Kevin turned to Beth. Thoughts flooded his mind, thoughts that were both his own and not his own, spoken and unspoken, infinite and transinfinite. Yet when Kevin, in the Forest of Anavolhaiaven, facing the woman he loved more than life itself, finally spoke, it was little more than a whisper that escaped his lips. ‘I . . .’ And Beth, acting crueller than she ever would again, cast her gaze to the ground." I can get past the Tolkien rip-off, and I can even get past the logic-abusing ending of the third book, but I cannot get past the Kay’s over-the-top emotionalism that drips from every single page of this work.