# A basic question about John McCain, POW **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 15, 2023, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705 "2023-04-15T09:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/1 "2023-04-15T09:46:16Z")
One thing I’ve never quite understood was how McCain was able to refuse release as a POW. I get it that he took the noble stance of telling his captors “No,” when they offered to release him early as a propaganda tool (though I don’t really understand what the big advantage was for them in that, either) but what I really don’t get is why his captors didn’t answer his “No” with “We aren’t asking you, we’re telling you.” I mean, the captors held all the power over their captives, no? What was stopping the Vietnamese from frog-marching McCain to, I don’t know, the top of the Eiffel Tower in Paris and walking away. What was he gonna do in that circumstance? Run after them and scream “Return me to the Hanoi Hilton ASAP!!” ? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/2 "2023-04-15T13:33:23Z")
I’m not sure this will answer the question fully, but McCain wrote of the experience > [@](#): > > …about June 15, 1968, I was taken up one night to the interrogation room. “The Cat” and another man that we called “The Rabbit” were there. “The Rabbit” spoke very good English. > > “The Cat” was the commander of all the camps at that time. He was making believe he didn’t speak English, although it was obvious to me, after some conversation, that he did, because he was asking questions or talking before “The Rabbit” translated what I had said… > > Suddenly “The Cat” said to me, “Do you want to go home?” > > I was astonished, and I tell you frankly that I said that I would have to think about it. I went back to my room, and I thought about it for a long time. At this time I did not have communication with the camp senior ranking officer, so I could get no advice. I was worried whether I could stay alive or not, because I was in rather bad condition. I had been hit with a severe case of dysentery, which kept on for about a year and a half. I was losing weight again. > > But I knew that the Code of Conduct says, “You will not accept parole or amnesty,” and that “you will not accept special favors.” For somebody to go home earlier is a special favor. There’s no other way you can cut it. > > I went back to him three nights later. He asked again, “Do you want to go home?” I told him “No.” He wanted to know why, and I told him the reason. I said that Alvarez [first American captured] should go first, then enlisted men and that kind of stuff. > > “The Cat” told me that President Lyndon Johnson had ordered me home. He handed me a letter from my wife, in which she had said, “I wished that you had been one of those three who got to come home.” Of course, she had no way to understand the ramifications of this. “The Cat” said that the doctors had told him that I could not live unless I got medical treatment in the United States. > > We went through this routine and still I told him “No.” Three nights later we went through it all over again. On the morning of the Fourth of July, 1968, which happened to be the same day that my father took over as commander in chief of U. S. Forces in the Pacific, I was led into another quiz room. > > “The Rabbit” and “The Cat” were sitting there. I walked in and sat down, and “The Rabbit” said, “Our senior wants to know your final answer.” > > "My final answer is the same. It’s ‘No.’ " > > “That is your final answer?” > > “That is my final answer.” > > With this “The Cat,” who was sitting there with a pile of papers in front of him and a pen in his hand, broke the pen in two. Ink spurted all over. He stood up, kicked the chair over behind him, and said, “They taught you too well. They taught you too well”—in perfect English, I might add. He turned, went out and slammed the door, leaving “The Rabbit” and me sitting there. “The Rabbit” said "Now, McCain, it will be very bad for you. Go back to your room. > **[John McCain, Prisoner of War: A First-Person Account](https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account)** > > John McCain spent over 5 years in captivity as a POW in North Vietnam, and wrote about it in May 1973. Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to answer the question you posed: why was McCain allowed this choice? But, per McCain, the Vietnamese had badly misjudged the propaganda value of their Prisoners of War: maybe they thought an early release of a “grateful” McCain would assist their side, but if he was only leaving reluctantly, or inclined to pull some stunt, then they were worried about the potential reaction. > [@](#): > > As the bombing of the North picked up in 1965, 1966, Hanoi made its first propaganda display by parading beaten, subjugated American pilots through the streets. To their surprise, the press reaction around the world was generally negative. > > Next, the North Vietnamese tried the tactic of forcing Cdr. Dick Stratton to appear and apologize for war crimes. But he had obviously been mistreated, and was doing this only under extreme duress. That backfired, too. They followed this by releasing two groups of three POW’s in February and October, 1968. These men had been there less than six months and had suffered no significant weight loss and were in pretty good shape. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/3 "2023-04-15T13:47:57Z")
Also, maybe his interrogators were lying. Maybe they just wanted to further break him. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/4 "2023-04-15T13:50:11Z")
My speculation is that they would have required McCain to agree to requesting a release rather than just releasing him. That would have allowed the Vietnamese to propagandize his release by saying he asked for and received special favors because of his privileged connections which other troops did not have. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/5 "2023-04-15T14:37:39Z")
Exactly what Nemo said. The propaganda value of him accepting a release was what they were after. McCain understood that too. I hope I remember this correctly but I recall one POW who bashed his own face against a wall so they wouldn’t use him in propaganda videos. I assume McCain would have done something like that too if they tried to make him go home, and they knew he would. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/6 "2023-04-15T16:18:13Z")
Still not getting it. They could release him, and tell the world that this mentally unstable prisoner, representing a mentally disturbed military attempting to colonize and oppress Vietnam, intentionally mutilated his own face to cast unjust doubts on the Vietnamese regime’s treatment of its prisoners. And since it happens to be true, they could probably provide evidence to support their story. But as long as folks are explaining this to me, would someone care to take a shot at my other question: what sort of propaganda advantage was there for the Vietnamese to release an admiral’s son early? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/7 "2023-04-15T16:20:09Z")
Nobody would believe that story. They would think he was beaten by his captors. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/8 "2023-04-15T16:26:49Z")
Leaving aside the whole “bashing in his own face” part, he was beaten (and crippled) by his captors, so what’s the big whoop? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/9 "2023-04-15T17:02:46Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > what sort of propaganda advantage was there for the Vietnamese to release an admiral’s son early? McCain’s account, which I cited above, indicates that the Vietnamese misjudged his importance in America. Also, it coincided with his father’s appointment as admiral of forces in the pacific. > [@](#): > > An officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as “The Bug.” He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, “O.K., I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.” He left and came back with a doctor, a guy that we called “Zorba,” who was completely incompetent. He squatted down, took my pulse. He did not speak English, but shook his head and jabbered to “The Bug.” I asked, “Are you going to take me to the hospital?” “The Bug” replied, “It’s too late.” I said, “If you take me to the hospital, I’ll get well.” > > “Zorba” took my pulse again, and repeated, “It’s too late.” They got up and left, and I lapsed into unconsciousness. > > Sometime later, “The Bug” came rushing into the room, shouting, “Your father is a big admiral; now we take you to the hospital.”… > > I didn’t know at the time that my name had been released in a rather big propaganda splash by the North Vietnamese, and that they were very happy to have captured me. They told a number of my friends when I was captured, “We have the crown prince,” which was somewhat amusing to me… > > Others came in to find out about life in the United States. They figured because my father had such high military rank that I was of the royalty or the governing circle. They have no idea of the way our democracy functions… > > What they wanted, of course, was to send me home at the same time that my father took over as commander in the Pacific. This would have made them look very humane in releasing the injured son of a top U. S. officer. It would also have given them a great lever against my fellow prisoners, because the North Vietnamese were always putting this “class” business on us. They could have said to the others “Look, you poor devils, the son of the man who is running the war has gone home and left you here. No one cares about you ordinary fellows.” I was determined at all times to prevent any exploitation of my father and my family. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/10 "2023-04-15T17:04:18Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > But as long as folks are explaining this to me, would someone care to take a shot at my other question: what sort of propaganda advantage was there for the Vietnamese to release an admiral’s son early? I think the idea would have been to further inflame the anti-war sentiment. It may seem odd in 2023, with the military being a lot more popular these days (ok, ignoring the recent leaker), but in 1968 it was a different story. People would have been even more likely to think that poor kids with no connections were being sent off to die in a meat grinder while the privileged got special treatment. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/11 "2023-04-15T17:15:45Z")
I don’t understand what you’re asking about. The North Vietnamese were only releasing prisoners for a propaganda advantage. As the war’s end became predictable they may have felt there some strategic advantage to it. That’s it though. Some men took advantage of that and came home. I don’t blame them for that. Others like McCain felt that would help our enemies and didn’t want to take advantage of it, and McCain in particular didn’t think well of his fellow captors who did. But beaten or not, every release was used by our enemies for their own perceived advantage and no other reason. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/12 "2023-04-15T17:28:40Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I think the idea would have been to further inflame the anti-war sentiment. It may seem odd in 2023, with the military being a lot more popular these days (ok, ignoring the recent leaker), but in 1968 it was a different story. People would have been even more likely to think that poor kids with no connections were being sent off to die in a meat grinder while the privileged got special treatment. Plus it would defeat the purpose of the propaganda and turn the story around if instead of him being grateful (or acquiescing) and welcomed home as a suffering PoW (with associated elite privilege) he spent all his time on TV talking about how he demanded that the others get to go home first, or also, and they refused. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/13 "2023-04-15T18:01:55Z")
Why did they even ask him? Just drop him off at the border or whatever. They say he pulled the daddy card or begged to be released. He says he refused and they dropped him off anyway. People will believe what they want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/14 "2023-04-15T18:53:27Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Why did they even ask him? Just drop him off at the border or whatever. yeah, that’s kinda what I’m asking. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/15 "2023-04-15T19:01:01Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > that’s kinda what I’m asking. According to [this](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/09/did-mccain-s-captors-really-need-his-permission-to-release-him-from-the-hanoi-hilton.html) (which refers back to the McCain account above), it was almost certainly going to be conditioned upon signing a statement denouncing the war and saying he was treated fairly. > [@](#): > > Why did John McCain’s captors need his permission to release him from jail?… > Because they wouldn’t have gotten what they wanted out of his release. McCain’s captors may have been hoping for positive publicity in letting go such a high-profile prisoner. (His father was an admiral in the U.S. Navy.) Had McCain been thrown out of jail without formally disavowing the United States, the North Vietnamese would have been denied a chance at propaganda victory. McCain would have come home telling stories of torture and coercion—not the PR the captors hoped for in engineering his parole. … > > According to an [account of his captivity](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html) given to _U.S. News & World Report_ in 1973, the North Vietnamese offered McCain the opportunity for an unconditional release—without signing any statements. But, he said, there was no way to know that they wouldn’t coerce him into signing something later on, after he’d already caved on the initial offer. (As for demoralizing his fellow prisoners, it does seem like the captors could have kicked him out, then told the other inmates that he’d capitulated.) > > Approximately a dozen of the 472 prisoners of war held in North Vietnam accepted offers of early release, usually in return for signing statements expressing sympathy for communism, denouncing U.S. involvement in the war, and saying they had been treated well by their captors. Most who accepted were injured or near the point of death. (Early release wasn’t offered to all prisoners.) Those who took the deal were then handed over to visiting anti-war groups, including American peace activists [Tom Hayden](http://www.answers.com/topic/thomas-emmet-hayden) and [Jane Fonda](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000404/bio). During their debriefing, most reneged on the statements they’d made to obtain release. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/16 "2023-04-15T19:16:01Z")
That makes sense. Maybe even filming him reading a prepared statement. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/17 "2023-04-15T19:22:44Z")
Maybe I’m just a chickenshit traitorous type, but I don’t see much virtue in not taking any release offered. I certainly understood at the time that prisoners’ on-camera statements were coerced, and that they took every syllable back the first chance they safely got. People were going to believe whatever they wanted to believe, and I can’t think that anyone was naive enough to believe anything anyone in captivity said as a condition of release. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/18 "2023-04-15T19:38:44Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > I certainly understood at the time that prisoners’ on-camera statements were coerced, and that they took every syllable back the first chance they safely got. McCain’s article talks about how Commander Stratton made a point of doing deep bows, turning 90 degrees each time until he had gone full circle, before reading a prepared statement. The Vietnamese, per McCain, didn’t think anything of it (since it was normal for them), but it was intended to send the signal that he was clearly acting under coercion. Another POW, Jerehmiah Denton, blinked the word “torture” while appearing before cameras in 1966. > **[POW who blinked 'torture' in Morse code](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2014-mar-29-la-me-jeremiah-denton-20140329-story.html)** > > Jeremiah Denton, the downed Navy pilot who was paraded before television cameras by the Viet Cong and confirmed U.S. suspicions of prisoner maltreatment during the Vietnam War by blinking out the word "torture" in Morse code, has died. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/19 "2023-04-15T19:45:43Z")
Did the Vietnamese write a script for the captives to recite verbatim? If so, I wonder if they had a native American speaker writing in colloquial American English, or if the statements contained odd diction and peculiar ESL syntax. I also wonder if the captives reciting the script could have mispronounced some words slightly, paused inappropriately, spoken in an accent that was foreign to their individual regions, etc. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705/20 "2023-04-15T19:54:37Z")
At that time it McCain and other considered it their responsibility as officers to nothing that would advantage the enemy in a propaganda effort. In addition he was considered for an early release ahead of other prisoners. I don’t recall the details of the military code of conduct or McCain’s beliefs that he wrote about. People think differently about it now. And even them some of his companions took any opportunity for release and even recorded propaganda films to do so. No one believed the propaganda anyway. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-basic-question-about-john-mccain-pow/982705.md?page=2)