# A Belgian farmer moved the border between France and Belgium **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 4, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391 "2021-05-04T19:58:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/41 "2021-05-06T04:05:59Z")
Like stones never move by themselves? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/89-AFHieDpM/hqdefault.jpg "Mystery of Death Valley's Moving Stones Solved") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89-AFHieDpM) ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/42 "2021-05-06T05:46:57Z")
> [@bump](#): > > something easily movable is a terrible boundary marker in a legal sense, Many survey markers are easily movable in the physical sense. That’s why there are laws (and religious traditions) that forbid moving them. (Also, from the pictures, ‘easily movable’ when you have a tractor, or a labor crew, which is true of most buildings). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/43 "2021-05-06T08:54:42Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Have there been any border wars since that market was placed? > [@dogbutler](#): > > “The Franco-Belgian War of 2021 was the first European war of the 21st century…” Nope - France is already gearing up to [fight them on the beaches in Jersey](https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-send-two-royal-navy-boats-to-jersey-after-france-threatens-blockade-of-island-port-12297840). ---
**Author:** ![vbob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vbob/32/4439_2.png) [@vbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vbob)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/44 "2021-05-06T09:53:57Z")
Town of Exeter, Rhode Island [and probably many others in New England] still has a Viewer of Fences - whose duties fall somewhere between surveyor and keeper-of-the-peace. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/45 "2021-05-06T12:27:32Z")
The Canada/US border between Quebec and NY/VT is supposed to be a straight line, but poor surveying 250 or so years ago led to it being out of whack. (Run your cursor along it in Google Maps, and you will see it constantly deviating from the correct 45 degrees). The US actually built a fort (“Fort Blunder”) on the wrong side of the border in 1816. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/46 "2021-05-06T12:30:09Z")
I don’t understand why he didn’t just click and drag it. I do it _all the time_ with Google maps. Easy-peasy. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/47 "2021-05-06T15:01:24Z")
Belgium is in a good position now because France and England are at war again. [This time it’s about the fish.](https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/06/uk/britain-france-war-ships-jersey-cmd-intl-gbr/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/48 "2021-05-06T15:07:50Z")
Connecticut and Rhode Island used to have walkers go from marker to marker and trace out the state border. I think this only ended recently, and that border is still questionable because of the fuzzy original language defining it. Markers are now missing (or maybe just misplaced) so it could be a long time before this is resolved. The border between RI and Mass has been problematic because it was shifted several times in the past. People are still sometimes mistaken about where they live when they are still living in an old family home that was once in the other state. These cases pop up when people register cars, try to vote, or get a tax bill. That last changes were long enough ago the problem is fading away rapidly. However, there are still a lot of properties straddling the border and still causing confusion. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/49 "2021-05-06T19:09:38Z")
A better way to describe what I’m saying is in effect, the fence between two properties isn’t the actual boundary in a legal sense. It may act like one in a practical sense, and it may track with the actual boundary, but it’s not the boundary itself. I used to do form and final surveys in college, and the actual boundaries are listed on a survey document and have nothing to do with the fencing. I suspect the boundary stones are much the same. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/50 "2021-05-07T00:00:34Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I suspect the boundary stones are much the same. I suspect that if boundary stones had no special meaning, they wouldn’t have to call a boundary commission when one is moved. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2021, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/51 "2021-05-07T02:22:57Z")
As mentioned above though, at least where I’m from, that is subject to challenge. In other words, “the boundary” may be what is on the paper, but the paper can be proven wrong. And that may be precisely because the paper doesn’t properly track the monuments. > [@Melbourne](#): > > I suspect that if boundary stones had no special meaning, they wouldn’t have to call a boundary commission when one is moved. I don’t know if you are right or wrong but it could be they need to call the boundary commission to know where to re-position the stone - ie it may not be that the stone has a special meaning in itself, except as an indicator. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2021, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/52 "2021-05-07T11:02:03Z")
…[quote=“bump, post:40, topic:941391”] ; something easily movable is a terrible boundary marker [/quote] … If it was moved to there, it most likely can be moved elsewhere as well. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/53 "2021-05-10T17:40:27Z")
A Frenchman and a Belgian walk the border, using GPS devices to record the latitude and longitude of the stone markers. Take notes. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/54 "2021-05-10T17:55:47Z")
What no blood? no deaths? no ethnic cleansing? that’s against all the inmortal traditions of western civilization my good sir. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2021, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/55 "2021-05-11T01:36:02Z")
You guys are all close. The FIRST step is research. Documents describing this line must be unearthed. Most of the documents will be deeds. Then you pay people to research and retrace. Fun parts are when monuments described no longer exist (I’ve seen deeds saying “then to the Northwest corner of the barn that is no longer there…”). Sometimes sequential deeds describe the same line with two different bearings. One headache I worked on had a FORTY-FIVE degree rotation between deeds! You’ll also have to take into consideration junior and senior deeds. Oftentimes you’ll find a lot of family history, in how Grandpa’s farm was divided amongst his many heirs. These days, monuments represent a point. There are times when a survey will show the monument isn’t QUITE where the legal point is. And there are (many, many) rules and laws to reconcile the differences. Fascinating stuff! ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2021, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/56 "2021-05-11T01:38:58Z")
You are describing what around here would be called “old system” title. It isn’t used universally around the world, even for private boundaries. Let alone international boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2021, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/57 "2021-05-11T02:05:10Z")
I would suppose that international borders have xyz GPS coordinates for all angle points/corners. What I described is the way you go about settling a disputed position allegedly represented by a monument. Out on our property in the middle of nowhere in AZ, many monumented points are easily visible. Most of the monuments are aluminum caps on rebar. Some residents have casually remarked that “the damned thing was in my way” and have yanked out the rebar. I told my husband to inform these people they don’t want to do that! If there is a problem later with the line, it will hurt in the wallet to hire a surveyor to come out and retrace the line and re-monument it. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/58 "2021-05-12T15:55:37Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > I would suppose that international borders have xyz GPS coordinates for all angle points/corners. Surely this would depend on whether the countries concerned have bothered to have their border monuments surveyed? Many international borders were established before the availability of highly-accurate surveying. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/59 "2021-05-12T16:10:21Z")
For this to be a big deal the stone must mark a turn in an otherwise straight line border, otherwise just move it back to somewhere on the line between the closest stones on either side. If it is the case where a turn is being marked then I’m surprised they don’t have a specific geolocation recorded somewhere for it. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391/60 "2021-06-05T03:12:18Z")
The Tim Traveller visited the moved France-Belgium border stone. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/8ddlv47t1tQ/maxresdefault.jpg "Can You REALLY Move The French-Belgian Border By Accident With A Tractor?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ddlv47t1tQ) TLDW: He wasn’t a farmer, he didn’t move the stone, and moving it didn’t move the border. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-belgian-farmer-moved-the-border-between-france-and-belgium/941391.md?page=2)