# A big middle finger to the people who took advantage to politicize the school shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2018, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107 "2018-02-19T09:00:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/121 "2018-02-19T21:31:10Z")
> [@Luciano700](#): > > My point is that a lot of people have no understanding of how powerful the masses of a citizenry can be, AND armed with guns, that shoot actual bullets, is better than just standing there getting mowed down. You see, nobody knows how many or what percentage of the armed services would defend civil liberties and “the people.” So it is incumbent upon a responsible citizenry to be at least capable of whatever they could offer their fellow citizens in defense of the Constitution. > > These “pee shooters” people are disparaging still shoot real bullets, and in the hands of a good number of people, fighting for their liberty, in an armed militia, side-by-side with military personnel who have the kinds of more powerful weapons the “enemies” have, would be not only helpful, but a powerful force. Add sheer masses and numbers with weapons to augment and aid the military personnel on their sides, and that could very well be the deciding factor. > [@Luciano700](#): > > Of course though if revolution ever did happen in this country, which I doubt it will, then an armed citizenry will help. Of course they would then have to get BETTER weapons as well as the ones they currently have. But I would put my faith in a population of 200+ million people with pea-shooters over a very small minority of armed forces, particularly when you also factor in the armed forces that would come over to the side of the people. But again, this is hypothetical. Government here in America has a healthy respect and fear of an armed citizenry, whether you choose to accept that or not. And NOT because a few guys with what you call pea shooters can, in and of themselves, make the difference. Because the masses far outnumber the government and the military, and again, this isn’t even factoring in the help the US people would get from the military. Allow me to congratulate you on your miraculous improvement of ESL. Now, fuck off, troll. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/122 "2018-02-19T21:31:21Z")
> [@Luciano700](#): > > Of course though if revolution ever did happen in this country, which I doubt it will, then an armed citizenry will help. Of course they would then have to get BETTER weapons as well as the ones they currently have. But I would put my faith in a population of 200+ million people with pea-shooters over a very small minority of armed forces, particularly when you also factor in the armed forces that would come over to the side of the people. But again, this is hypothetical. Government here in America has a healthy respect and fear of an armed citizenry, whether you choose to accept that or not. And NOT because a few guys with what you call pea shooters can, in and of themselves, make the difference. Because the masses far outnumber the government and the military, and again, this isn’t even factoring in the help the US people would get from the military. Hungry, unfed masses with pissant guns. Some army you’ve got there. I would say that this isn’t a great debate and that we ought to go back to discussing your ignorance and stupidity, but you demonstrate that with every post you make. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/123 "2018-02-19T21:31:25Z")
> [@Luciano700](#): > > Of course though if revolution ever did happen in this country, which I doubt it will, then an armed citizenry will help. So what is the proper number of children who should be sacrificed each year on this altar of your masturbatory fantasies of re-creating the Revolutionary War at some distant point in our future? ---
**Author:** ![Luciano700](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Luciano700](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luciano700)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/124 "2018-02-19T21:33:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So what is the proper number of children who should be sacrificed each year on this altar of your masturbatory fantasies of re-creating the Revolutionary War at some distant point in our future? None ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/125 "2018-02-19T21:36:22Z")
> [@Luciano700](#): > > None _Is_ none. ---
**Author:** ![Luciano700](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Luciano700](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luciano700)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/126 "2018-02-19T21:40:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > _Is_ none. Look I don’t want to even debate you guys… Even I shared my gun control ideas… ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/127 "2018-02-19T21:43:26Z")
> [@Luciano700](#): > > Look I don’t want to even debate you guys… That’s fortunate, because this is not an even debate. ---
**Author:** ![Luciano700](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Luciano700](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luciano700)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/128 "2018-02-19T21:47:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > That’s fortunate, because this is not an even debate. Right, I don’t even want it to become a debate. I can already form some opinions, I still need to read a bit more… And most of the radical content I watch in YT is for fun anyways. But I will answer the question Dictatorships arise from one thing, and one thing only- the consolidation of too much power (or wealth- which is a form of power) in a single set if hands. A dictatorship can, necessarily, only form when one person declares himself Dictator- and that individual is almost always somebody who has spent years accumulating power before making a bid to seize control of the government… Someone who wants to abuse the system basically ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/129 "2018-02-19T21:47:27Z")
Did the OP expect us to know he was Russian this fast, or are they surprised? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/130 "2018-02-19T21:48:43Z")
> [@Luciano700](#): > > I suppose mass shootings have been on the rise for the last 2 decades… You _suppose?_ You’re a kid. You know how to use Google or Wikapedia. _Fucking look it up_. There is no “suppose” about it. They HAVE increased. And all we’ve gotten for fucking _decades_ is “thoughts and prayers” and “don’t make it political”. _ **That doesn’t fucking WORK.** _ So let’s GET political and STOP praying and DO SOMETHING. Every other civilized nation on the planet, and some not so civilized, have little or none of this problem. \*\* _Other countries do it better_\*\*, so it’s time to look at what they’re doing. Cultural tradition my ass - if your traditions are killing your children it’s time for new traditions. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/131 "2018-02-19T21:48:58Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Aren’t prayers meant to be sent privately? I thought the bible was all about that doing good deeds in private stuff? > > I agree though, people shouldn’t be talking about issues if its just going to get in the way of all the prayers. Jesus didn’t go into a closet to pray for people’s healing, at least not in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Luciano700](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Luciano700](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luciano700)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/132 "2018-02-19T21:51:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You _suppose?_ > > You’re a kid. You know how to use Google or Wikapedia. _Fucking look it up_. There is no “suppose” about it. They HAVE increased. And all we’ve gotten for fucking _decades_ is “thoughts and prayers” and “don’t make it political”. > > _ **That doesn’t fucking WORK.** _ > > So let’s GET political and STOP praying and DO SOMETHING. > > Every other civilized nation on the planet, and some not so civilized, have little or none of this problem. \*\* _Other countries do it better_\*\*, so it’s time to look at what they’re doing. > > Cultural tradition my ass - if your traditions are killing your children it’s time for new traditions. Where did I say that? The last part? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/133 "2018-02-19T21:54:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jesus didn’t go into a closet to pray for people’s healing, at least not in the Bible. The lesson that fundamentalist Christians take from this is to pray for the healing of people in the closet, right? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/134 "2018-02-19T21:55:15Z")
Room full of seal clubbers. ---
**Author:** ![Luciano700](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Luciano700](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luciano700)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/135 "2018-02-19T21:56:20Z")
And school shootings are nothing new to me Sandy Hook happened back when I was in 5th grade, I heard of Columbine first time when I was in 3rd grade, Virginia Tech back in 6th grade[English teacher told us a story about it], it wasn’t a shooting I heard of right away. I read gun control debate articles back in 4th grade too. ---
**Author:** ![Luciano700](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Luciano700](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luciano700)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/136 "2018-02-19T22:04:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The lesson that fundamentalist Christians take from this is to pray for the healing of people in the closet, right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/137 "2018-02-19T22:08:01Z")
> [@Luciano700](#): > > The following are just “off the cuff” ideas. I have no idea if they are practical. Well, OK, let’s calmly discuss your ideas in a serious manner. > [@](#): > > I think people who want to own anything above a basic handgun should be required to have X-amount of hours training with common weapons. I think just as a person needs to demonstrate a fundamental ability to drive a car without plowing into a group of people in an outdoor strip mall, if you want to own weapons, you should have to learn how to shoot straight, clean a gun, dismantle it, operate is safely, turn a safety on and off, load and unload, and then have to take practical exams at a firing range. Having done some considerable research on guns in the past couple years, and deciding that I will soon purchase a gun (I have something specific in mind and I’m shopping around at the moment) I think I can speak with a tiny bit of authority on this matter. Not as much as long time gun owners, consider some of this my own “off the cuff” thinking. You seem to presume that a handgun is the “starter” gun, or should be - but on what do you base that assumption? Different guns have different purposes. Someone wishing to obtain a gun for hunting purposes might be better off with a rifle or shotgun. Then you have the problem of determining _which_ of the many varieties of guns available. If you’re going after big game you need a bigger gun/bullet. But if you’re shooting small game a .22 might be plenty and has the advantage of being both cheaper to purchase and having less expensive ammo. Also, if you’re hunting smaller game for eating purposes too large a bullet will basically leave you with just a smear of hamburger on the ground. If you’re hunting birds you use a shotgun. Let’s take shotguns for home defense purposes. The break-action shotgun is a classic, mechanically simple, function in all sorts of adverse conditions, but have a very limited number of shots before requiring reloading. A pump-action shotgun is a bit more complex but still quite reliable, and makes that classic “don’t fuck with me” noise that can have some deterrent effect in and of itself. A semi-automatic shotgun offers more bullets prior to needing to reload but is mechanically more complex and needs more care and maintenance. So maybe what you want is more like licensing for specific types of guns - a license for rifles, a license for shotguns, a license for handguns. Or maybe for different types of gun - revolver vs. semi-automatic. Maybe someone far more knowledgeable than I am will have better suggestions for categories. But do consider that your assumptions may be flawed and do some research. > [@](#): > > I think practical exams should include being able to hit targets with a certain percentage, being able to clean and disassemble, then re-assemble a gun in a limited time period. Hitting a target is not that big a deal, especially with a scope of any sort. My first time at a gun range I hit a LOT of bullseyes. I’m not sure it’s particularly meaningful standard. Yes, I do think being able to clean and maintain your weapon is important. I don’t yet have my gun but I do already have a kit with everything I need to care for it sitting in my home. However, what’s this “disassemble/re-assemble” business? Are you getting your information from TV and the movies? That’s a feature of semi-automatic weapons, which are not the only kind out there. If you had, for example, a break-action shotgun there’s really not anything to take apart and put back together. “Appropriately clean and maintain your weapon” might be a better way to express that. I would also add in there some knowledge about the appropriate ammunition for your weapon, the different types available, and the different purposes they serve. I also think you should be knowledgeable in gun safety in general. Not just “don’t point it at people” but also options on how to keep them secure and out of the hands of people who should not have them, how to legally and safely transport them, and so forth. > [@](#): > > I am not a psychologist, but I am sure that there are all kinds of ways to determining if a guy may become unhinged a few months or years down the line. No, actually there aren’t. There is actually no real way to determine who is going to “snap” years down the line. Yes, we can spot some people with very obvious mental issues in the here and now but there is no way to spot every person who is going to go whacko down the line. It would be nice if there was, a lot of governments and agencies and other parties would really, really like to have that, but we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/138 "2018-02-19T22:13:37Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Room full of seal clubbers. Some baby seals are really irritating little shits who deserve to get stomped in the head. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/139 "2018-02-19T22:15:56Z")
> [@Luciano700](#): > > So the 2nd Amendment, while somewhat being about the Militia and the Continental Army fighting against the Crown, mostly it was about an armed citizenry that could, at any time, be prepared to overthrow even an American government that lapsed into tyranny or tried to wield unbridled power over its people. > > That is why the American people will never, and I mean NEVER, agree to be completely disarmed so that we become nothing more than helpless cannon-fodder in the event that our government decides to become tyrannical. The problem is that in the present day the government has weapons the Founders never imagined that make even the most powerful firearms look like spitballs. A citizenry armed with rifles and handguns is not going to be able to overturn by force a government possessing B2 bombers, ballistic missiles, and nuclear bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Luciano700](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Luciano700](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luciano700)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107/140 "2018-02-19T22:22:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, OK, let’s calmly discuss your ideas in a serious manner. > Having done some considerable research on guns in the past couple years, and deciding that I will soon purchase a gun (I have something specific in mind and I’m shopping around at the moment) I think I can speak with a tiny bit of authority on this matter. Not as much as long time gun owners, consider some of this my own “off the cuff” thinking. > > You seem to presume that a handgun is the “starter” gun, or should be - but on what do you base that assumption? > > Different guns have different purposes. Someone wishing to obtain a gun for hunting purposes might be better off with a rifle or shotgun. Then you have the problem of determining _which_ of the many varieties of guns available. If you’re going after big game you need a bigger gun/bullet. But if you’re shooting small game a .22 might be plenty and has the advantage of being both cheaper to purchase and having less expensive ammo. Also, if you’re hunting smaller game for eating purposes too large a bullet will basically leave you with just a smear of hamburger on the ground. If you’re hunting birds you use a shotgun. > > Let’s take shotguns for home defense purposes. The break-action shotgun is a classic, mechanically simple, function in all sorts of adverse conditions, but have a very limited number of shots before requiring reloading. A pump-action shotgun is a bit more complex but still quite reliable, and makes that classic “don’t fuck with me” noise that can have some deterrent effect in and of itself. A semi-automatic shotgun offers more bullets prior to needing to reload but is mechanically more complex and needs more care and maintenance. > > So maybe what you want is more like licensing for specific types of guns - a license for rifles, a license for shotguns, a license for handguns. Or maybe for different types of gun - revolver vs. semi-automatic. Maybe someone far more knowledgeable than I am will have better suggestions for categories. > > But do consider that your assumptions may be flawed and do some research. > Hitting a target is not that big a deal, especially with a scope of any sort. My first time at a gun range I hit a LOT of bullseyes. I’m not sure it’s particularly meaningful standard. > > Yes, I do think being able to clean and maintain your weapon is important. I don’t yet have my gun but I do already have a kit with everything I need to care for it sitting in my home. > > However, what’s this “disassemble/re-assemble” business? Are you getting your information from TV and the movies? That’s a feature of semi-automatic weapons, which are not the only kind out there. If you had, for example, a break-action shotgun there’s really not anything to take apart and put back together. > > “Appropriately clean and maintain your weapon” might be a better way to express that. > > I would also add in there some knowledge about the appropriate ammunition for your weapon, the different types available, and the different purposes they serve. > > I also think you should be knowledgeable in gun safety in general. Not just “don’t point it at people” but also options on how to keep them secure and out of the hands of people who should not have them, how to legally and safely transport them, and so forth. > No, actually there aren’t. There is actually no real way to determine who is going to “snap” years down the line. Yes, we can spot some people with very obvious mental issues in the here and now but there is no way to spot every person who is going to go whacko down the line. It would be nice if there was, a lot of governments and agencies and other parties would really, really like to have that, but we don’t. There we go, finally more civil discussion and less heat \*stops sweating Yes, you can’t tell right off the bat who’s gonna go whacko. That’s why I think we should be more careful when we go crazy on people who aren’t on a good mood or grew up depressed or whatever. Well keep doing my research. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-middle-finger-to-the-people-who-took-advantage-to-politicize-the-school-shooting/809107.md?page=8)